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Old 10-17-2022, 03:40 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,809,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Educator1982 View Post
When you have many or most students give a professor a bad review, there is a red flag. It's not the teacher's calling anymore. At least in my opinion, unless every teacher there that teaches the same subject gets nearly the same bad reviews, it's just not worth it and the teacher needs to change or find something else. What this does is causes lots of problems for the students wanting to get their degrees. People have to constantly drop.
Most of his students gave him good reviews, and many sent letters of support to the dean, when they heard there had been complaints. According to the article linked in the OP (did you read it?), less than a quarter of the students complained. A quarter may sound like a lot, but this was organic chemistry, not English or history. As others have explained, the course is kind of a gate-keeper for who gets to proceed into medical school, and who doesn't. In view of that, one would expect closer to 1/3 or more to complain.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 10-17-2022 at 03:50 AM..
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:32 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Right, and universities usually have a teaching center for faculty who need help with their teaching skills. Those places can really work wonders. I've seen faculty who were really struggling, turn into award-winning teachers who get good student reviews. So there's no excuse for faculty at large state universities at least, or any college that offers coaching to it instructors, to continue to teach ineffectively.
Neither of the schools that I graduated from (undergraduate or graduate) offered that, as far as I know. Like I keep saying, whenever there was a professor who was a poor teacher, students would just defend them saying he/she is good at research. Even with no evidence that the professor was even doing research. I had one professor who was senile and unable to teach anything. I seriously doubt he was doing any research at all at that point in his career. It was sad, since I was told that he was an excellent professor when he was younger. But he was clearly no longer able to do his job.

I've mentioned several times in other threads, and nobody ever really responded: would you buy a car from a company that primarily made pianos rather than cars? And if you bought a car from such a company that was a lemon, would you justify it by saying that their main job is to make pianos, and their pianos are the best, even though you have no experience with their pianos?
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:39 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
So you're in the "I'm a customer" contingent?
Yes I am, given the level of tuition that students pay.

Quote:
If so, you have no more standing to participate in any thread on education.
And why is that? And what did I say in my post that was out of line? I find it quite sad that you say I have no more standing to participate just because we disagree.

Quote:
I was my high school's AP Coordinator for years.
The AP Coordinator at my high school was an assistant principal who gave me detention for defending myself against a bully, and who claimed that grades were infinitely accurate. So throwing that title at me isn't going to suddenly cause me to respect you any more than you respect me.

Quote:
For a couple years we had money to pay the teachers for after school tutoring.

Care to guess how many students showed up for that over the two years? I'll give you a hint: the number ranges between 0 and 0. Over two years not one showed up for review and tutoring sessions.
Probably because it was taught by the same teachers who were failing to teach them during regular school hours. So why waste time with tutoring?

Quote:
So, whose fault is it, exactly, when resources are offered and the students don't take advantage of them?
The students decided that taking advantage of that "resource" was not worth their time.

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I would have students come to me pissing and moaning about their grades and the first question I'd ask would be, "Have you gone to Mr./Mrs./Ms tutoring sessions which are held either Monday and Wednesday or Tuesday and Thursday?" (Yes, I had to schedule them as well as keep track of the numbers).

Then came the excuses. Now a lot of these kids had no problem whatsoever attending the tutoring their coaches set up for the teams. Of course, that was mandatory.
If the tutoring set up by their coaches was mandatory, they'd have to give priority to mandatory activities over optional activities.

Quote:
Then, of course, the Principal would get into the act screaming about scores.
Unfortunately, in any job, people are going to be blamed for things that may not be their fault. I'm not saying that's right, but it's not unique to your job.
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:47 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILTXwhatnext View Post
That's why there are Teaching Assistants. They already have a bachelor's or master's and they know the subject well enough. Maybe the prof is one of these who can't teach, really. The students may be better off that way.
At least at the school that I went to for undergrad, TAs were completely useless. They barely spoke English, and they did not appear to know anything about the subject matter being taught. The worst was in a lab where, the first lab report was graded entirely based on form, not content, such as what font was used or how tables were labeled, with no indication as to what was wanted. Everybody got a bad grade, and it was a rare case where students actually did complain. The TA admitted that he knew nothing about the subject area, so he made us a deal that for the rest of the semester, on every lab report, as long as you hand something in, you will get a random grade between 90 and 95, as long as you agree not to complain about why you got a 90 when somebody else got a 95. And the lowest grade (obviously the first lab report) would be dropped.

However, some students did continue to complain about the first lab report, even though it would be dropped as long as you handed something in for the rest of the reports, and they eventually went to the dean. What was eventually done was a new rule where the first lab report of the semester, after initially being graded, had to be handed back so that we could fix any "form" issues, and were allowed to submit it for a re-grade. To get around that rule, in most classes, they would not hand back the 1st lab report until after the 2nd lab report was due, in order to be sure that we'd get at least one bad grade (the 2nd lab report).

Quote:
As I posted elsewhere, when I had my review last spring I asked my asst principal how things were going. She said students had lost all their soft skills during COVID. Talk out personal differences? No, now they just start swinging. Work on a group project? Those skills evaporated. And so on.

That thing about misreading questions is student skills 101. They'll answer a question, but not necessarily the one you asked. Even making the test easier didn't help. People making zeros, even? If you didn't learn in the prerequisite courses the whole thing can come down like a house of cards.
Perhaps our educational system needs to figure out how to compensate for the lost years due to Covid. I admit it will be hard, since every student was at a different point in life when Covid happened, even if in the same grade.
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:52 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,337 posts, read 60,512,994 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Yes I am, given the level of tuition that students pay.



And why is that? And what did I say in my post that was out of line? I find it quite sad that you say I have no more standing to participate just because we disagree.



The AP Coordinator at my high school was an assistant principal who gave me detention for defending myself against a bully, and who claimed that grades were infinitely accurate. So throwing that title at me isn't going to suddenly cause me to respect you any more than you respect me.



Probably because it was taught by the same teachers who were failing to teach them during regular school hours. So why waste time with tutoring?



The students decided that taking advantage of that "resource" was not worth their time.



If the tutoring set up by their coaches was mandatory, they'd have to give priority to mandatory activities over optional activities.



Unfortunately, in any job, people are going to be blamed for things that may not be their fault. I'm not saying that's right, but it's not unique to your job.
You did not understand one word of what I wrote. Not one. And then drag in your experience which adds nothing to the conversation and which, as usual, rehashes decades old grievances.

Who gives a **** that your Vice Principal was also AP Coordinator, to use but one irrelevant example, gave you detention? That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the point of any of this discussion.
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:54 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
I also have to wonder if there is also a slowing of the maturation process that has come in recent years generally. I’m not talking just about COVID policies, but since it’s become common for kids as early as late elementary to have their own cell phones. There is something to not relying on having a device on you ALL the time to answer your questions, and kids who start in elementary school with that device may lack the self reliance. I know adults who now live places years and still use GPS to get everywhere. It is one thing to do it I a huge city where you may not drive much and want the GPS to help direct you to the best route, but if it is just your run of the mill city, you should be able to get around on your own after taking a route a few times.
I think a big part is because students are increasingly treated as if they are younger and younger. Increasing the age at which people earn privileges does not mean that they are more mature when gaining that privilege.
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:55 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
A minor difference in terminology that doesn't change the point. Ultimately any professional in a client relationship has to provide good services or lose that client. And if they continue to provide poor services, they will go out of business.

Where is that ultimate recourse in the education industry? How many educators are in actual fear of losing their jobs due to poor performance? Very, very few. How many school systems, if their "clients" had an actual choice to go elsewhere (vouchers?) would remain in business as a "professional" service? How many teachers would be willing to work under an actual client/professional relationship?
I'm still curious: what is the difference between a customer vs a clienet?
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Old 10-17-2022, 08:57 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm sorry, but I think there's a heck of a lot of difference between a customer and a client.
What do you consider to be the difference between a customer and a client?
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Old 10-17-2022, 09:03 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
12 students rated him "good" to "great" or "awesome". 3 rated him "ok" to "aweful". That's pretty typical in the ratings for professors who require a lot from their students. The majority appreciate the difficulty of the course, usually saying, "it was a tough course, but I learned a lot", while there are always some disgruntled ones at the bottom.
Again, not everybody learns best from the "hard" professors. Also, keep in mind that, not just for professors, but reviews in general, will only be written by people with an extremely positive or extremely negative experience, not the people with the typical experience, which makes them of questionable reliability. And I do know of cases where teacher's pets were encouraged to write positive reviews to counteract a negative review.
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Old 10-17-2022, 09:04 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,041,618 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
You did not understand one word of what I wrote. Not one. And then drag in your experience which adds nothing to the conversation and which, as usual, rehashes decades old grievances.

Who gives a **** that your Vice Principal was also AP Coordinator, to use but one irrelevant example, gave you detention? That has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the point of any of this discussion.
So then do you mind re-writing what you said in terms that somebody like myself can understand?
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