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Old 10-22-2022, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,428 posts, read 5,973,383 times
Reputation: 22388

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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Before Ronald Reagan's war on higher education, paying for college - especially state universities was relatively easy. Having attended college in the 70s, I was fortunate to not need financial aid.

Many people do not realize that Reagan's was on educating people with modest incomes began in the 1980s. The banks profited at the student's expense.

Student loan forgiveness is righting a moral wrong that continues to burden our youth, and further divide our country.

Please read this - https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...-ronald-reagan
"Student loan forgiveness is righting a moral wrong..."

A patently absurd statement.

College is a service. Students purchase an education. Some students who can't afford to pay for an eduction, choose to fund acollege eduction by taking out a loan they signed for, under terms they agreed to voluntarily.

Taking out a college loan is no different than taking out a home mortgage or an auto loan car. All involve the purchase of goods and services, consumed by purchasers at an agreed to price, funded with an agreed to loan.

There is nothing moral or immoral about it.

If you can't pay for goods and services you desire, and you can't service the debt for them, then you shouldn't purchase them.

Making it a morality issue is patently ridiculous.
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Old 10-23-2022, 12:00 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
11,428 posts, read 5,973,383 times
Reputation: 22388
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheena12 View Post
Before Ronald Reagan's war on higher education, paying for college - especially state universities was relatively easy. Having attended college in the 70s, I was fortunate to not need financial aid.

Many people do not realize that Reagan's was on educating people with modest incomes began in the 1980s. The banks profited at the student's expense.

Student loan forgiveness is righting a moral wrong that continues to burden our youth, and further divide our country.

Please read this - https://www.commondreams.org/views/2...-ronald-reagan
As for blaming Reagan.

College costs have exploded since 2004, GW Bush's second term. Or did you think Reagan's death in 2004 caused college costs to soar? Ask yourself what changed during GW Bush's second term that caused college costs to explode?

https://www.tigernet.com/forum/threa...0-2020-2001377

(Per CD policy I can't display the chart in the link due to copywrite issue, so you have to click the link to see the chart of college costs since 1980)

This has nothing to do with President Reagan and everything to do with changes by Baby Bush.
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Old 10-23-2022, 04:50 AM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,098 posts, read 32,448,969 times
Reputation: 68298
Reagan ruined higher education while he was governor of California. Once higher education was free in California. Free - paid for by taxes. And other means. The way we pay the fire department, child protective4 services, or the police. Education is, like the other agencies I mentioned, is a necessity. Like the others, it is usually good and it usually enhances the populous. Sometimes there are abuses, but out of the agencies I mentioned first, education screws up significantly less, than say, child services, or the police. Nevertheless, civilized societies offer these services to their citizens because they are deemed important. Education isn't a luxury. All civilized industrialized societies offer higher education to their citizens. Why does the United States think our people are not worthy of something that is taken for granted in the countries that many of our ancestors left behind. Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Germany, France and others provide higher education to their young people.

Once the United States thought that Education was important to America. One of the first to think this was none other than one of our most popular presidents, Abraham Lincoln, establishing 'Land Grant" colleges and universities in each state. Many have evolved into excellent, and well-known institutions that have changed the lives of their graduates and the socio-cultural landscape of our country

Later the city college system was born in response to the burgeoning immigrant population, educating a multitude of future doctors, teachers, lawyers, engineers, artists, law enforcement personnel, psychologists, nurses' journalists and others.

The Greatest Generation returned from WWII to the GI Bill which afforded an education to a generation that would give birth to the Baby Boomers. Colleges were bursting at the seams in the 1960s and early 1970s. Governmental Grants were a major source of funding, as was student work study. Later, the children of the Silent Generation, those of us born to fathers who served in Korea, late Baby Boomer (Generation Jones) and early Gen Xers continued to benefit from affordable tuition coupled with grants. Obviously, many students had families who were able to foot the bill with little assistance.

When did this happy scenario end? With Ronald Reagan who gutted Federal grants and introduced the banks to a new side hustle. A very lucrative side hustle - student loans.

THIS IS NOT MY OPINION - IT IS A FACT. If you don't know about it, GOOGLE it.

Or read this. https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ684842.pdf
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Old 10-23-2022, 07:29 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Igor Blevin View Post
"Student loan forgiveness is righting a moral wrong..."



Making it a morality issue is patently ridiculous.
The real moral issue isn't loan forgiveness, rather it's the perfect storm of two things:

a. The push by the education industry for everyone to go to college, starting around the early 70s, give or take. I remember even in elementary school the subtle push, essentially propaganda, of how it was college or failure in life. This grew to include the scaling back, and even outright shuttering of many high school Vo-Tech programs that provided the ground level education that so many really needed. Net result -- massive increase in the number of students entering college, without a corresponding increase the percentage of the population that was college ready.

b. At the same time there began a massive decrease in state funding to public colleges that coincided with a massive increase in infrastructure to accommodate that increase in students. A double economic whammy that transferred the cost from state funding to loan funding. With that cut in state funding pushed forward by much of the same sentiment this thread is based on -- the antipathy of a significant portion of the public toward the college educated.

Fundamentally, the college loan issue is a symptom of a deeper issue, that is whether a public education system, to include both public Vo-Tech and public colleges, is an important need of the people. Because, in spite of all the anger generated toward college education, it's really only a small handful of the population that is whining publicly about it which has focused that antipathy and resentment.

If the college loan issue disappeared tomorrow, the antipathy and resentment would still be there. "Why?" is the question asked by this thread.
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Old 10-23-2022, 07:41 AM
 
899 posts, read 670,380 times
Reputation: 2415
I used to carpool with a friend from high school. He went to community college with me for a year, then dropped out. He was never really the academic type but he gave it a try. We only paid about $10/credit hour so it was within almost everyone's reach. And in a way I think maybe that has minimalized the complaining from a lot of people. If they wanted to go, they could have afforded it. Mind you, I later went on to a four-year university and that was more expensive, but a lot of people didn't have the desire to do the first two years, let alone four. I mean, some people graduate high school and feel like they've been paroled or something. There were a few standalone certifications students could get, like electronics or nursing assistant if they really wanted a useable associate's degree. But classmates who quit mostly decided they didn't want to keep going to school, then got jobs, got married, etc.
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Old 10-23-2022, 07:45 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,698 posts, read 58,012,579 times
Reputation: 46172
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The real moral issue isn't loan forgiveness, rather it's the perfect storm of two things:

a. The push by the education industry for everyone to go to college, ...

b. At the same time there began a massive decrease in state funding to public colleges that coincided with a massive increase in infrastructure to accommodate that increase in students. ..

Fundamentally, the college loan issue is a symptom of a deeper issue, that is whether a public education system, to include both public Vo-Tech and public colleges, is an important need of the people. ...

If the college loan issue disappeared tomorrow, the antipathy and resentment would still be there. "Why?" is the question asked by this thread.
Antipathy Toward College Educated
Several causes (as noted in this thread), and they are not going away, ever.

We (USA) have no strategy for EDU / utilization of people, talent, resources. That is part of the cost of being 'free', as is the Free Market society (including EDU). There are sharks and abusers in all systems. The USA has provided a format for subsidized and encouraged financial mismanagement in many areas. Infrastructure, Education, and Healthcare are just the most evident. There is a great incentive to keep it all inefficient and ineffective, and USA voters are swayed my media, not investigative or intellectual voters. It's an easy system to be a croak.

History is a pretty certain view of our (USA) eventual result. Failure, warring, opposition, ... from within. Stay tuned.
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Old 10-23-2022, 11:02 AM
 
3,356 posts, read 1,232,755 times
Reputation: 2301
[quote=StealthRabbit;64330513]Maybe after we get through this college loan forgiveness we can start working on mortgage forgiveness, especially for those of us who were working 3+ jobs as college age kids, caring for and buying homes our parents @12% interest of the 1980's.

Many of the USA veterans who daily faced death (not by choice) to qualify for their GI Bill. Not all came home and were able to go to college.

"I find that unconscionable actually."
[/QUOTE

I’m of the age you speak about. Put myself through state college in the 70s with many grants because my parents were lower middle class and I could handle a 3. Average.( Those same grants aren’t so readily available for working class families today). No college loans. Just a lot of waitressing (drinking age was 18 then). A 4 year state college degree shouldn’t put you in the poorhouse.
Our first mortgage was 11.5% in 1979, but the house tripled in value in 9 years.
But the reality is that it is so very much tougher for todays working class kids. College is far more expensive and the housing market is volatile, so you can’t count on the gains there if the family was even ever able to purchase a home.
I believe all hard working kids that want a college education deserve a fair priced product.
Colleges don’t need fancy dorms, sports complexes, coaches paid a million dollars (or about the cost of 20 adjunct profs) or bigger endowments. I think those colleges, not the federal government, need to be accountable for loans to students they failed to serve fairly. Meanwhile, forgive the Pell grants to those who qualify, force the state governments to fund their own state colleges, and bring down the cost of higher education.
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Old 10-23-2022, 11:25 AM
 
17,357 posts, read 16,498,076 times
Reputation: 28964
[quote=Jstarling;64333518]
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Maybe after we get through this college loan forgiveness we can start working on mortgage forgiveness, especially for those of us who were working 3+ jobs as college age kids, caring for and buying homes our parents @12% interest of the 1980's.

Many of the USA veterans who daily faced death (not by choice) to qualify for their GI Bill. Not all came home and were able to go to college.

"I find that unconscionable actually."
[/QUOTE

I’m of the age you speak about. Put myself through state college in the 70s with many grants because my parents were lower middle class and I could handle a 3. Average.( Those same grants aren’t so readily available for working class families today). No college loans. Just a lot of waitressing (drinking age was 18 then). A 4 year state college degree shouldn’t put you in the poorhouse.
Our first mortgage was 11.5% in 1979, but the house tripled in value in 9 years.
But the reality is that it is so very much tougher for todays working class kids. College is far more expensive and the housing market is volatile, so you can’t count on the gains there if the family was even ever able to purchase a home.
I believe all hard working kids that want a college education deserve a fair priced product.
Colleges don’t need fancy dorms, sports complexes, coaches paid a million dollars (or about the cost of 20 adjunct profs) or bigger endowments. I think those colleges, not the federal government, need to be accountable for loans to students they failed to serve fairly. Meanwhile, forgive the Pell grants to those who qualify, force the state governments to fund their own state colleges, and bring down the cost of higher education.
What is the actual percentage of people who would benefit from this loan forgiveness? It seems to me that these loan borrowers who feel so heavily burdened by their own student loans are a relatively small segment of our society. They are vocal and they are loud and boy, do they ever know how to whine, but they certainly do not represent most student loan borrowers and they sure as heck don't represent most people.

We are talking about a "forgiveness" program that would hurt most Americans while giving a chosen handful a nice little windfall.

There are states like Florida that offer promising HS students Bright Future merit scholarships which are paid for out of the state lottery proceeds. College is absolutely affordable in many states.
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Old 10-23-2022, 03:34 PM
 
2,066 posts, read 1,071,348 times
Reputation: 1681
I don’t like the idea of my tax dollars being used to pay for someone’s whiteness/gender/cannabis degustation studies triple-major.
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Old 10-23-2022, 04:44 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,698 posts, read 58,012,579 times
Reputation: 46172
Antipathy Toward College Educated is not about 'costs / expense' AFAIK, It is more about RESULTS (or lack there if).

but... regarding costs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jstarling View Post
...
But the reality is that it is so very much tougher for todays working class kids.College is far more expensive

I believe all hard working kids that want a college education deserve a fair priced product.

I think those colleges, not the federal government, need to be accountable for loans to students they failed to serve fairly. Meanwhile, forgive the Pell grants to those who qualify, force the state governments to fund their own state colleges, and bring down the cost of higher education.
College does not have to be expensive. (today)

Most of us were paying our own way making $1.50 / hr (plus buying or renting homes, our own cars, insurance, food, , clothes, laundry...)
My engineering school is actually cheaper today based on equivalent starting wages for grads.
https://www.educationcorner.com/most...versities.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by springfieldva View Post

What is the actual percentage of people who would benefit from this loan forgiveness? It seems to me that these loan borrowers who feel so heavily burdened by their own student loans are a relatively small segment of our society. They are vocal and they are loud and boy, do they ever know how to whine, ...
We are talking about a "forgiveness" program that would hurt most Americans while giving a chosen handful a nice little windfall.

There are states like Florida that offer promising HS students Bright Future merit scholarships which are paid for out of the state lottery proceeds. College is absolutely affordable in many states.
true...https://universityhq.org/best-colleg...rsities-state/

Average is less that $10k/ yr tuition and fees
Students don't have to go for the 'full-meal-deal'...
renting a room is still $400/ month
can easily eat and commute on $10/ day

So a $12 . hr PT job can cover it. (That's HS wages)
A college student can find a better job that is related to their field of study ~$20 / hr.
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