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Old 11-08-2022, 11:07 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,065 posts, read 7,232,760 times
Reputation: 17146

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The sadest part of this discussion is it shows how poorly schools have done teaching personal finance and economics. And science as well since everyone believes money grows on trees and that you get more out than what you put in.
In some states personal finance is mandatory (Illinois). I got personal finance as a unit in high school economics.

Students didn't listen.
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Old 11-08-2022, 12:53 PM
 
12,101 posts, read 17,087,371 times
Reputation: 15771
In terms of personal finance, some of the chaotic nature of this world cannot be ignored.

I have a friend who lives in the NYC area, and he just ran out and bought a car because he needed it for work.

Didn't really shop around, figured he wanted this kind of car, and walked into a dealership and bought it. I shouldn't even need to imply what that means in Fall 2022.

But he makes over six figures at a pretty easy job, so ...

Those kinds of actions might crush somebody who makes less money or doesn't have a stable job through no GREAT fault of their own.

Last edited by jobaba; 11-08-2022 at 01:03 PM..
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Old 11-08-2022, 01:15 PM
 
12,101 posts, read 17,087,371 times
Reputation: 15771
How higher education as it relates to the world of 'work', and society SHOULD be more like...

-We need to perform actions to keep our society in a running and acceptable state. For example, we need people to fill potholes, and maintain the steps to city hall and the train station so it doesn't look like Chișinău, Moldova (go Youtube it). Or even Memphis, Tenn. And work is the way to do that. And education should be the way to teach those people what they need to do that. We need people to serve people hamburgers to people when they want them. Maybe that's an easy training process, but it's still training.
-There are a LOT of jobs in this country and people should be put into those jobs in terms of fit.

But how it is, at least in America is...

-My job sucks, and I want to make as much money as possible, and retire as early as possible. And I barely even care about the product/result as long as nobody complains. And if education is the means to increase the gap between me and guy who works at Burger King or the person who has an Art History degree, that's what I want to do. And when I'm 45 I want to be making double or triple what I was making at age 25, just because I have 20 years of doing 'something'.

I don't even need to say what kind of a ripple-effect that has.

Last edited by jobaba; 11-08-2022 at 01:25 PM..
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Old 11-08-2022, 02:12 PM
 
Location: The New England part of Ohio
24,098 posts, read 32,448,969 times
Reputation: 68298
Quote:
Originally Posted by jobaba View Post
Almost every one who posts on CD Forum seems to be a smashing success regardless of their education level, so if you go by that ... I guess maybe there's some truth to the fact that education doesn't mean that much.

And as someone who is well educated with 'useful degrees' I can't say I contradict that.

I don't believe many of the people who brag, on a public forum about how wealthy they are. Much of it has a political agenda. The rest? Who knows?

Most people in my family and extended family, with few exceptions, have "useless degrees" and are still successful.

With liberal arts degrees they have become successful. I was raised by a history major and an art history major. We were very, very comfortable.
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Old 11-08-2022, 03:28 PM
 
Location: Central IL
20,726 posts, read 16,358,121 times
Reputation: 50373
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
1. Saying we bailed out others is irrelevant.
2. ProPublica is a biased organization not worthy of being cited.
3. There is no such thing as "predatory" in economics. It does not exist.
According to https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/propublica/, yes, they "lean to the left" but in terms of factual reporting they are rated "high". Though they may focus more on topics of interest to the left, they aren't bending all the facts. Just for reference, FOX News is "extreme right" and "mixed" for factual reporting.
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Old 11-08-2022, 03:57 PM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
All very good points. Even if you have parents who are educated and well-meaning, they tend to only know what financial skills apply to their own personal situation. My father was living in the same public sector bubble that the posters on this forum live in. So, he knew nothing about things like investing, 401Ks, IRAs, etc. And I was used to seeing him off for every holiday, able to take off whatever day he wanted, saw health insurance cover everything, and not be affected by recessions since he had a guaranteed job. My teachers were living in that same bubble, so that was all that I knew. So I had to teach myself about 401Ks, IRAs, substandard health insurance, recessions, need for an emergency fund, limited vacation time, working holidays, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
My father likewise worked in the public sector and knew nothing about personal finance besides receiving a paycheck and paying bills. I still remember him remarking about the salaries of various lines of work that "that is what they decided the pay was going to be". Who are they? He seemed to think we lived in a command economy. He also thought the key to any job was "learning the lingo". It never seemed to occur to him that supply and demand existed, that skills were real. He thought success in life was about credentials, connections, and the preferences of the powers that be. Which if you are a local government functionary is probably all you know.
A couple of points y'all might want to consider, esp in light of the era I believe your parents would have grown up/started work.

The way of thinking/behavior toward a lot of financial knowledge you're describing have less to do with a public bubble or "government functionary" than the era they grew up and began work. 401Ks didn't come about until the late 70s and didn't start to become common until the mid to late 80s. Many other financial instruments didn't really become popular either before that time. Sure, there were always some who invested in the market for example, but the typical Joe Sixpack worker didn't or only superficially.

For most workers prior to that era, the most complicated finance they'd do was buying a home, through a typical local bank, at simple interest. The investment tool of choice was a savings account, also at the local bank. Many/most were still paid by check or even cash on Friday afternoon and went to the bank to deposit it. Banks actually did give out toasters to open an account. And a Christmas club was often the first account a kid opened to learn about saving. And that's how they thought -- saving and checking. Investing was some strange beast for the wealthy, not something they worried about.

Workwise, many jobs were structured just how y'all think government jobs were structured. That wasn't unique to the government; government copied it from industry. People got a job at the plant. The roles were very structured. Movement up and down the pyramid was very controlled. Someone (didn't call them HR back then but things like Personnel) did indeed decide what a particular job code was worth and that's what it paid. In many places it was almost a "command economy." The company commanded and the employees obeyed. Not long before your dads, perhaps even after they were born, the company would own many of the houses employees lived in and deducted from their pay for the "rent." The employees shopped in the company store.

A few years ago, I was at an investment seminar where the speaker said, "if you had invested $500 per month in the stock market starting in 1980, you'd have ...." Well, first of all, in 1980 I was still in school and wasn't even making $500 a month, much less have it as disposable income. Second, the financial advice being given back then was get a corporate job, stay with the same company 30 years and they'll take care of you, and put your saving into a back that has FDIC on the door. Very different than today's advice.

It was simply a different financial world back then.
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Old 11-08-2022, 05:31 PM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,668,342 times
Reputation: 19661
I think Mitsguy is in his 40s, so his parents would likely have come of age before women could have credit cards or get loans in their own name. Obviously in HS, the financial education would have to be different for women than it would be for men.

Even when we came of age, things were not at all like they are now. When I finished HS, I did get a credit card, but it was not at all unusual to pay for things with cash or check. A lot of places (particularly restaurants) still did not take credit cards. For big purchases, you didn’t have companies giving you credit cards or payment plans. Instead, you’d get the item on layaway and make payments for it BEFORE you were able to pick it up. I think direct deposit was available when I got my first job, but there were a lot of people who did not use it. I am not sure if I used it for all my jobs because I do remember going to the bank quite a lot back in the day.

Meanwhile, one of our newer financial products is Klarna, which allows you to split up the cost of even fairly basic items like a $50 makeup palette into 4 payments by making only one of the payments at the point of sale. I can certainly see having this type of financial products for large ticket items like appliances, mattresses, furniture, etc. On the other hand, it just seems to fund frivolous purchases when you can go on Shein and get 20 cheap, disposable items and pay for them in 4 payments. By the time you finish paying for them, they may have already fallen apart. From what I’ve read about Klarna and the other comparable products, it’s mostly Gen Z that uses them. Millennials onward are more likely to rely on credit cards.

These days, even from the time you take a personal finance class (I took a life management skills in first semester of 10th grade) to graduation, things may change.
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Old 11-08-2022, 09:29 PM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
I think Mitsguy is in his 40s, so his parents would likely have come of age before women could have credit cards or get loans in their own name. Obviously in HS, the financial education would have to be different for women than it would be for men.

Even when we came of age, things were not at all like they are now. When I finished HS, I did get a credit card, but it was not at all unusual to pay for things with cash or check. A lot of places (particularly restaurants) still did not take credit cards. For big purchases, you didn’t have companies giving you credit cards or payment plans. Instead, you’d get the item on layaway and make payments for it BEFORE you were able to pick it up. I think direct deposit was available when I got my first job, but there were a lot of people who did not use it. I am not sure if I used it for all my jobs because I do remember going to the bank quite a lot back in the day.

Meanwhile, one of our newer financial products is Klarna, which allows you to split up the cost of even fairly basic items like a $50 makeup palette into 4 payments by making only one of the payments at the point of sale. I can certainly see having this type of financial products for large ticket items like appliances, mattresses, furniture, etc. On the other hand, it just seems to fund frivolous purchases when you can go on Shein and get 20 cheap, disposable items and pay for them in 4 payments. By the time you finish paying for them, they may have already fallen apart. From what I’ve read about Klarna and the other comparable products, it’s mostly Gen Z that uses them. Millennials onward are more likely to rely on credit cards.

These days, even from the time you take a personal finance class (I took a life management skills in first semester of 10th grade) to graduation, things may change.
Funny how you mention those changes. I remember when I was in high school helping my dad balance his books each month. He had charge cards --American Express, Diners Club, & Carte Blanche as I recall and several gas company cards (Gulf, Amoco, Texaco, and Phillips I think). It was relatively late in the game when the MasterCharge first came out. When I went to college, he got me an Amoco card to carry just in case I needed gas, but I didn't get an actual credit card until after college when I got my first real job. As you said, everything was pretty much cash or check. In contrast my son, does all his banking on his App and started investing while still in college. Huge changes.
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Old 11-08-2022, 11:37 PM
 
1,216 posts, read 507,315 times
Reputation: 1448
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solere View Post
This is not a political post.

Recent media reports of government proposed student loan debt forgiveness in my opinion seem to have unleashed a lot of antipathy toward college educated people collectively.

When I have written persuasive letters in the past quoting professors and subject matter experts with higher education degrees, those with no college education would sometimes respond with a "What do they know?" attitude" or "I don't need a professor" to tell me what to think" remark.

Has there for many years been an underlying antipathy toward the college educated from the non-college educated that was aggravated by the recently announced debt forgiveness plan?

Lie #1 this is a political post. Any guys with a box truck are more important than you.
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Old 11-09-2022, 07:18 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
A couple of points y'all might want to consider, esp in light of the era I believe your parents would have grown up/started work.

The way of thinking/behavior toward a lot of financial knowledge you're describing have less to do with a public bubble or "government functionary" than the era they grew up and began work. 401Ks didn't come about until the late 70s and didn't start to become common until the mid to late 80s. Many other financial instruments didn't really become popular either before that time. Sure, there were always some who invested in the market for example, but the typical Joe Sixpack worker didn't or only superficially.

For most workers prior to that era, the most complicated finance they'd do was buying a home, through a typical local bank, at simple interest. The investment tool of choice was a savings account, also at the local bank. Many/most were still paid by check or even cash on Friday afternoon and went to the bank to deposit it. Banks actually did give out toasters to open an account. And a Christmas club was often the first account a kid opened to learn about saving. And that's how they thought -- saving and checking. Investing was some strange beast for the wealthy, not something they worried about.

Workwise, many jobs were structured just how y'all think government jobs were structured. That wasn't unique to the government; government copied it from industry. People got a job at the plant. The roles were very structured. Movement up and down the pyramid was very controlled. Someone (didn't call them HR back then but things like Personnel) did indeed decide what a particular job code was worth and that's what it paid. In many places it was almost a "command economy." The company commanded and the employees obeyed. Not long before your dads, perhaps even after they were born, the company would own many of the houses employees lived in and deducted from their pay for the "rent." The employees shopped in the company store.
Those are valid points.

Quote:
A few years ago, I was at an investment seminar where the speaker said, "if you had invested $500 per month in the stock market starting in 1980, you'd have ...." Well, first of all, in 1980 I was still in school and wasn't even making $500 a month, much less have it as disposable income.
And that is why the advice that is given is useless for most of us.
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