Are Gen Eds in college useful or just a drag on finishing? (football, history)

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by tnff

The advice I got was slightly different. It was pretty much figure out what you want to do (passion if you want to call it that), then attend the best school that teaches that degree you can get into. Best does not necessarily mean most expensive. In many cases the best will be a public flagship.

This was similar to the advice I got in the not-too-distant past. It’s not bad advice at all, although I would balance it with the caveat that the “best” undergraduate schools should be viewed in broad bands rather than discrete numbers, and cost of attendance (and resulting debt) should be a considerable countervailing factor.

Originally Posted by tnff

When my kids hit the college hunt, the biggest problem with the school counselor's advice was they were too focused on the same set of nearby (nearby being relative, we're still talking dorms, not commuting from home). These we mainly schools that sent advisors (salespeople) to visit the counselors and were not necessarily the best fit schools. We ensured out kids went to best fit rather than the limited list the school counselors used.

My parents paid for a fancy schmancy private college counselor who seemed knowledgeable enough, but didn’t know any more than I did about the best school for my wants and needs after I took the (not inconsiderable) time to do my own research.

In fairness to him, he probably delivered more value for the top-top-notch students in our area chock full of highly competitive suburban public and prestigious private schools alike and helped them differentiate themselves among this not un-sizable (and largely interchangeable) cohort to help them get the best results out of a process that is, and remains, a crapshoot. For semi-underachievers with high test scores but mostly B’s in all honors and AP classes like me, the honors program at a flagship-level in-state university with a modest (and I do mean modest) scholarship ended up being the appropriate outcome. And while I didn’t realize it at the time, that ended up putting me in the best position possible to work hard and end up in my Ivy League lawl skool (and saving enough money that I was able to finish my professional schooling debt-free when all was said and done).

Originally Posted by tnff

Something you mention in your posts, both about high school and college, is how important grades were to your scholarship. And you mention how bad your teachers/professors were. Do you feel like your scholarship trapped you in a bad situation?

I’ve seen that too. And while I don’t think he’s consciously making things up, I do sometimes question his perspective. Granted, due to the lack of grade inflation, getting a high GPA in engineering is simply far and away more difficult than in the liberal arts. There’s probably a ~0.50 point difference in equivalent performances at most universities.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by tnff

The advice I got was slightly different. It was pretty much figure out what you want to do (passion if you want to call it that), then attend the best school that teaches that degree you can get into. Best does not necessarily mean most expensive. In many cases the best will be a public flagship.

But it still ignores money, which I think is a mistake.

When my kids hit the college hunt, the biggest problem with the school counselor's advice was they were too focused on the same set of nearby (nearby being relative, we're still talking dorms, not commuting from home). These we mainly schools that sent advisors (salespeople) to visit the counselors and were not necessarily the best fit schools. We ensured out kids went to best fit rather than the limited list the school counselors used.

Sounds like there was some sort of deal going on between those colleges and your kids’ high school.

In any case, location is a legitimate criterion for students to consider. I wanted a college that was too far to come home to for a regular weekend, but close enough to come home to for a 3 day or longer weekend. But keep in mind that in my case, that zone includes many colleges, so I really was not limiting myself much in that way.

Something you mention in your posts, both about high school and college, is how important grades were to your scholarship. And you mention how bad your teachers/professors were. Do you feel like your scholarship trapped you in a bad situation?

No, because my understanding was that college professors were poor teachers at nearly every college, and by then I understood that employers only care about the piece of paper, not where it was from.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

This was similar to the advice I got in the not-too-distant past. It’s not bad advice at all, although I would balance it with the caveat that the “best” undergraduate schools should be viewed in broad bands rather than discrete numbers, and cost of attendance (and resulting debt) should be a considerable countervailing factor.

Definitely

My parents paid for a fancy schmancy private college counselor who seemed knowledgeable enough, but didn’t know any more than I did about the best school for my wants and needs after I took the (not inconsiderable) time to do my own research.

In fairness to him, he probably delivered more value for the top-top-notch students in our area chock full of highly competitive suburban public and prestigious private schools alike and helped them differentiate themselves among this not un-sizable (and largely interchangeable) cohort to help them get the best results out of a process that is, and remains, a crapshoot. For semi-underachievers with high test scores but mostly B’s in all honors and AP classes like me, the honors program at a flagship-level in-state university with a modest (and I do mean modest) scholarship ended up being the appropriate outcome. And while I didn’t realize it at the time, that ended up putting me in the best position possible to work hard and end up in my Ivy League lawl skool (and saving enough money that I was able to finish my professional schooling debt-free when all was said and done).

That all makes sense. But most 17 year olds don’t know enough about themselves nor about the world to make those determinations.

I’ve seen that too. And while I don’t think he’s consciously making things up, I do sometimes question his perspective. Granted, due to the lack of grade inflation, getting a high GPA in engineering is simply far and away more difficult than in the liberal arts. There’s probably a ~0.50 point difference in equivalent performances at most universities.

What about my perspective do you question? I’m not trying to argue, I’m just genuinely interested in what you are referring to?

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

No, because my understanding was that college professors were poor teachers at nearly every college,

I don’t think that’s true at all. While my classes included a couple of less than stellar professors, I thought that most of my teachers were great, and I went to a large, flagship-level, public research university that was plenty respectable but hardly prestigious.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

and by then I understood that employers only care about the piece of paper, not where it was from.

Yes and no, depending on the field. This is most accurate to the extent that local colleges and universities carry significantly more weight within their immediate geographic regions.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

What about my perspective do you question? I’m not trying to argue, I’m just genuinely interested in what you are referring to?

I’m mostly thinking of this thread.

[TexasLawyer2000]

Originally Posted by bu2

In my third English course in college I finally learned how to write. Of course, I could have taken a technical writing course instead of expository writing, but I thought technical writing would be boring.

Then when I got into the work world, I had to unlearn all I learned in college. They wanted noun-verb-subject, KISS. They didn't want interesting, convoluted sentence structures.

They teach technical knowledge in college, but time changes much of that. Mainly they teach you a way to approach problems. Engineers, lawyers, chemists and accountants all have somewhat different ways to approach things.

I wouldn't say you had to unlearn what you learned in college. More that you had to learn another way of writing in addition to what you learned in college. You are not better equipped for different types of situations.

[TexasLawyer2000]

Originally Posted by YorktownGal

My daughter thought about becoming a college professor. I wasn't too happy!

According to Zip Recruiter: The national average is $50,782 a year.

That's just salary. Overtime, a successful college professor owns a percentage of their research which can yield compensation in other ways. Patents, books, and speaking, for example.

[TexasLawyer2000]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

My son took 7 AP classes in high school. He received six 5s and a 4. I paid for all of them. None counted in college. He tested out of his first biology class in college. He had gotten a 5 on the AP bio test. Testing out of Bio I was a mistake. He found he was behind the other students in his second biology class.

Originally Posted by tnff

Students who AP test out of the first in a sequence of courses find themselves behind in the follow-on courses. High school AP classes apparently don't provide an adequate background.

Often, AP classes in high school provide more in-depth study of a subject compared to college because there's more classroom time. But as you point out, it's not always a good match. And the reality is that it can't be. There's no one exam that can cover how all colleges teach a particular subject.

[TexasLawyer2000]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

But professors often won’t allow you to hand a paper in early, and wont accept it until after the dorms close for Thanksgiving, and you have to hand it in in person, not online. Plus, they give an in person exam the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving after the dorms are closed, and give you a 0 if you miss it for any reason.

This does happen, but it's unusual and rare.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by TexasLawyer2000

That's just salary. Overtime, a successful college professor owns a percentage of their research which can yield compensation in other ways. Patents, books, and speaking, for example.

I also imagine this is a highly bimodal distribution skewed downward even more by the fact that there are far more adjuncts barely scraping by than fully tenured professors who usually make at least a fairly comfortable living. But the academia ladder is certainly not an easy one to climb.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

But it still ignores money, which I think is a mistake.
.

Money should be a factor, but not the only factor. For example, the Education Department has a website, https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator...pg=1&id=199193 that provides a lot of information about colleges. Just for grins I picked NC State since I have no affiliation to that state or school. The information covers everything from admissions cohort data to graduation rates and final ROI results. A little quick comparison of various colleges will show which higher or lower probabilities of success. For example NC State typical cohort 25th to 75th percentile is 27 to 32 ACT score. Compare that to other schools which are higher or lower gives an idea of the talent in the student body and the level courses will be taught toward. You can also see graduation rates and default rates which give an indication of the quality of outcomes/jobs post college.

It's not just about money, but about value.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

Sounds like there was some sort of deal going on between those colleges and your kids’ high school.

In any case, location is a legitimate criterion for students to consider. I wanted a college that was too far to come home to for a regular weekend, but close enough to come home to for a 3 day or longer weekend. But keep in mind that in my case, that zone includes many colleges, so I really was not limiting myself much in that way.
.

I wouldn't call it a deal so much as school guidance counselors are just that clueless about higher education opportunities.

Location is a legit concern. I'm a strong advocate for dorm life. There's a lot to be learned there that isn't taught in class.

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

No, because my understanding was that college professors were poor teachers at nearly every college, and by then I understood that employers only care about the piece of paper, not where it was from.
.

I think you got some really bad advice somewhere along the way. Of course, there are some lousy college professors. I had them myself. Also, good ones and in between ones. One of the big differences that many kids don't get told, esp the top students in high school, is college professors aren't going to spoon feed the material. Just like good employers care more than about a "piece of paper." (That's another one of those anti education put downs we discussed in another thread). What they care about is what that "piece of paper" represents -- the knowledge and skills you were trained on. For an engineer especially, the degree doesn't represent the end of education, but the beginning. It's a license to learn.