Are Gen Eds in college useful or just a drag on finishing? (techniques, biology)

[rabbit33]

Well, as an engineering student I had to take a number of non-technical courses (we called it "distribution") but they were all 100 level courses, maybe the occasional 200 level. Basically Soci 101/102 or Poli 101/102 is just a slightly more advanced version of high school. These were the courses the scholarship athletes specialized in. All the engineers just more or less sailed through these courses. I very seriously doubt that any engineering major anywhere is required to take 400 level courses in English, History, or such.

[mitsguy2001]

At my college, for engineering majors, the gen ed requirements were as follows:

6 credits in communications, 3 of which must be written communication. I took Technical Writing (Professor was a jerk, but I learned a lot and got an A), and Public Speaking (Obviously useful, got a B+)

Microeconomics (got an A) plus another 3 credits in social science. I actually exceeded that requirement (remember, I had a lot of AP credits, so I had a lot of extra room in my schedule) since I took Macroeconomics (got an A), psychology (Got an A-), and an engineering ethics class (extremely useful, and got an A). In my opinion, the engineering ethics class should have been a required class for engineers. But, in practice, very few people took it, since most had no room in their schedule unless they had AP credits

3 credits in foreign language: I took college Italian in high school, so that transferred 6 credits, so I exceeded that requirement

6 credits in letters: In high school, I took both AP European History (6 credits) and AP US History (6 credits) so I exceeded that requirement

6 credits in fine arts and literature: Lucky that fine arts and literature were combined in the same category, so I was able to take the extremely easy Music 101 with the right professor, which was an easy A with zero work outside of class, rather than taking a time-consuming literature class. For the other 3, I took another music class, the history of jazz, also with an easy professor, and got an A with no real work.

The math and science requirements were moot since they were met by required classes, and I AP-ed out of all of them anyway.

In any case, my college gave a lot of flexibility for gen eds, and I was able to get off easy by AP-ing out of a lot of them.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by rabbit33

Well, as an engineering student I had to take a number of non-technical courses (we called it "distribution") but they were all 100 level courses, maybe the occasional 200 level. Basically Soci 101/102 or Poli 101/102 is just a slightly more advanced version of high school. These were the courses the scholarship athletes specialized in. All the engineers just more or less sailed through these courses. I very seriously doubt that any engineering major anywhere is required to take 400 level courses in English, History, or such.

They aren't 400 level courses, they're exactly what they say they are, Gen Ed classes that any reasonably bright college student should pass without a whole lot of problems. They're also not, as we've incorrectly learned here, "just high school level classes".

Originally Posted by mitsguy2001

At my college, for engineering majors, the gen ed requirements were as follows:

6 credits in communications, 3 of which must be written communication. I took Technical Writing (Professor was a jerk, but I learned a lot and got an A), and Public Speaking (Obviously useful, got a B+)

Microeconomics (got an A) plus another 3 credits in social science. I actually exceeded that requirement (remember, I had a lot of AP credits, so I had a lot of extra room in my schedule) since I took Macroeconomics (got an A), psychology (Got an A-), and an engineering ethics class (extremely useful, and got an A). In my opinion, the engineering ethics class should have been a required class for engineers. But, in practice, very few people took it, since most had no room in their schedule unless they had AP credits

3 credits in foreign language: I took college Italian in high school, so that transferred 6 credits, so I exceeded that requirement

6 credits in letters: In high school, I took both AP European History (6 credits) and AP US History (6 credits) so I exceeded that requirement

6 credits in fine arts and literature: Lucky that fine arts and literature were combined in the same category, so I was able to take the extremely easy Music 101 with the right professor, which was an easy A with zero work outside of class, rather than taking a time-consuming literature class. For the other 3, I took another music class, the history of jazz, also with an easy professor, and got an A with no real work.

The math and science requirements were moot since they were met by required classes, and I AP-ed out of all of them anyway.

In any case, my college gave a lot of flexibility for gen eds, and I was able to get off easy by AP-ing out of a lot of them.

I have to ask about the History classes. Were your college classes for Euro and US two semesters? That's a bit strange and if you got AP credit for two semesters of a class you were fortunate since colleges don't do that often.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

I have to ask about the History classes. Were your college classes for Euro and US two semesters? That's a bit strange and if you got AP credit for two semesters of a class you were fortunate since colleges don't do that often.

I received two semesters’ worth of credits for AP U.S. History. I don’t think it’s that unusual based on the volume of information covered by the AP curriculum and the fact that many universities would cover only half of the curriculum in a standard one-semester course. I’m guessing the same rationale applies to AP European History (which my high school didn’t offer).

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

I received two semesters’ worth of credits for AP U.S. History. I don’t think it’s that unusual based on the volume of information covered by the AP curriculum and the fact that many universities would cover only half of the curriculum in a standard one-semester course. I’m guessing the same rationale applies to AP European History (which my high school didn’t offer).

The volume of information was my, well and many others, argument when College Board was redoing some of the AP courses.

I just never ran into any colleges that would award two semesters of credit for a single AP course, either professionally or with my personal children.

[mitsguy2001]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

They aren't 400 level courses, they're exactly what they say they are, Gen Ed classes that any reasonably bright college student should pass without a whole lot of problems. They're also not, as we've incorrectly learned here, "just high school level classes".

I think it varies heavily on what professor you have, even for what is nominally the same class. A professor can run a 100 level class like a high school or even a middle school class. Or he/she can run it like a 400 or even a graduate level class. Remember the Music 101 example I keep giving. i knew to take the easy professor, where it was an easy A with no work outside of class. But at least one other professor treated it was preparation for a music career, even though nobody headed for a music career would actually take that class, and many students would flunk.

I have to ask about the History classes. Were your college classes for Euro and US two semesters? That's a bit strange and if you got AP credit for two semesters of a class you were fortunate since colleges don't do that often.

At least when I was in college, nearly all AP classes were the equivalent of 2 semester college classes, so they were worth 6 credits (8 credits for a lab science class). AP European History and AP US History were each the equivalent of 2 semester classes, so I received 6 credits for each (12 total), and I only needed 6 credits for the letters requirement (so the other 6 were wasted).

The AP and college classes I took in high school:

10th grade: AP Bio: Received 7 credits (for a 3 credit and a 4 credit class), but they were wasted since I did not need any bio classes

10th grade: AP European History: 6 credits, met my letters requirement

11th grade: AP Physics B: 3 credits for a very low level physics class (lower than what was taught in AP Physics B), but it wasn't really wasted since I had to take AP Physics B in 11th grade before I could take AP Physics C in 12th grade. For some strange reason, they counted this as my one free elective.

11th grade: AP US History: 6 credits. already met my letters requirement, so it was wasted.

11th grade: I took a college Principles of Engineering class. My college did not have any equivalent class, so it did not transfer, so it was wasted

12th grade: AP Calculus: 8 credits, for Calc 1 and 2, both required classes, and both weed-out classes, so I was able to start with the much easier Calc 3 (Multivariable calculus).

12th grade: AP Physics C: This had 2 exams: Mechanics gave me credit for Physics 1 (4 credits), and Electricity and Magnetism gave me credit for Physics 2 (Electricity and Magnetism), both required classes, and both weed-out classes, so I was able to start with the much easier Physics 3 (Thermodynamics, waves, and optics).

12th grade: AP Chem: 8 credits, for Chem 1 and 2. Chem 1 was a required class and a weed-out class, but Chem 2 was wasted

12th grade: AP Computer Science: 6 credits. Wasted, since I did not need any computer science classes

12th grade: A college Italian class, equivalent to 2 semester classes, so 6 credits. Met the foreign language requirement. I only needed 3 credits of foreign language, so the other 3 credits were wasted.

Nominally, I started college with 58 credits, even though only 32 credits were useful for my major. Where the 58 credits came in handy was registration was done in priority order based on number of credits, so I was always able to register before any of my peers.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

The volume of information was my, well and many others, argument when College Board was redoing some of the AP courses.

I just never ran into any colleges that would award two semesters of credit for a single AP course, either professionally or with my personal children.

This was a flagship-level public research university circa. the mid-‘00s.

However, I looked it up out of curiosity and they apparently changed their policy. While a 4/5 APUSH exam score still corresponds with two semesters’ worth of history courses, you may only receive credit for one (three-credit hour) course. The same is true for AP Euro.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

The volume of information was my, well and many others, argument when College Board was redoing some of the AP courses.

I just never ran into any colleges that would award two semesters of credit for a single AP course, either professionally or with my personal children.

Just an FYI since we're in this conversation, my kids attended two different colleges and each had different policies toward AP credit.

Oldest:
AP would only count for 3 credits.
Would not allow AP credit toward core curriculum in the major.
AP credit allowed toward electives and some Gen Eds.
For the Gen Eds: They allowed a limited number of AP to replace a Gen Ed within each subject area. For example APUSH could substitute for US History. However you couldn't also use a different AP History toward another course within the History/Geography area. Same within English/Lit area. You could however AP out of, say English 101, and substitute in a higher-level English course.
Net result was able to decrease the number of classes those first couple of semesters which gained time on the courses that mattered = higher grade.

Youngest:
AP would only count for 3 credits.
You could not substitute AP credit for a course to get out of a course. But you could AP out of a course if you substituted in a higher-level course from that area. For example, my youngest had AP Calc so he could have AP'ed out of Calc 101. His program required 101 and 102. If he had AP'd out of 101, he would have had to substitute in a 200-level course, taking 102 and the 200-level course. So AP would have gained him nothing. In his case he chose to not use the AP credit and instead used what he'd learned in AP Calc to improve his grade in 101 and 102.
Net result was same number of classes each semester but high grade from having had the AP course.

Note this was for AP. Each school also treated dual enrollment differently. The oldest's school accepted dual enrollment as one for one credit for courses that were a direct match. Otherwise, they went into free electives if they were in the right area. The youngest's treated dual enrollment much like AP -- you got credit for that class but still had to take a higher-level replacement.

Based on how they were accepted, I'd recommend dual enrollment over AP as a better value.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by tnff

Just an FYI since we're in this conversation, my kids attended two different colleges and each had different policies toward AP credit.

Oldest:
AP would only count for 3 credits.
Would not allow AP credit toward core curriculum in the major.
AP credit allowed toward electives and some Gen Eds.
For the Gen Eds: They allowed a limited number of AP to replace a Gen Ed within each subject area. For example APUSH could substitute for US History. However you couldn't also use a different AP History toward another course within the History/Geography area. Same within English/Lit area. You could however AP out of, say English 101, and substitute in a higher-level English course.
Net result was able to decrease the number of classes those first couple of semesters which gained time on the courses that mattered = higher grade.

Youngest:
AP would only count for 3 credits.
You could not substitute AP credit for a course to get out of a course. But you could AP out of a course if you substituted in a higher-level course from that area. For example, my youngest had AP Calc so he could have AP'ed out of Calc 101. His program required 101 and 102. If he had AP'd out of 101, he would have had to substitute in a 200-level course, taking 102 and the 200-level course. So AP would have gained him nothing. In his case he chose to not use the AP credit and instead used what he'd learned in AP Calc to improve his grade in 101 and 102.
Net result was same number of classes each semester but high grade from having had the AP course.

Note this was for AP. Each school also treated dual enrollment differently. The oldest's school accepted dual enrollment as one for one credit for courses that were a direct match. Otherwise, they went into free electives if they were in the right area. The youngest's treated dual enrollment much like AP -- you got credit for that class but still had to take a higher-level replacement.

Based on how they were accepted, I'd recommend dual enrollment over AP as a better value.

What you've described are the most common iterations I ran in to over the years I dealt with AP, with both public and private colleges over several states (until fairly recently the majority of Maryland graduates going to college went out of state).

[509]

The problem with general education classes for STEM majors is the waste of money and time for useless courses.

The Forest Service had mid-career training for its professional employees that centered on all that stuff that should have been taught in general education classes but was NOT. There is value in general education classes for STEM, just not the ones being taught in colleges today.

For STEM students I would suspect these general education classes would be worthwhile.

Technical Writing
Public Speaking
Literature... Review of Science Fiction and Science
Cultural Norms and Expectations in the World
Economics (both micro and macro)
Basic Design Concepts
Drawing (introduction to drawing)
Ethics and Morality in Science

For Biology Majors.....note I had to take two quarters of physics for biology majors but I suspect that requirement has been dropped.

Basic concepts of Physics....how things work and why.
Shop Classes at the University level on the tools to build things with wood, metal, and electricity.

For Engineering types and the Physical Sciences

Basic Ecology--the science, not the political hype. Make it a easy, interesting class. It does not have to hard.
Basic Biology---bio-chemistry, humans and plant physiology.


There might be others that I have missed.

Likewise, on the Liberal Arts front. In today's world if you do not have a basic background in math, sciences, and statistics you are basically illiterate in todays world. So with that thought. General Science requirements for Liberal Arts majors.

Basic Ecological concepts--see above the woke crowd can take it with the Engineers. That would be a class on diversity by itself.
Statistical Concepts....statistics and probability without the math requirements.
History of Science and Society (full year)
Basic Biology concepts...see above
Basic Physics...how things work
Basic Economics without the math for both micro and macro.

Probably should add some more to the list. More science is always better.