Are Gen Eds in college useful or just a drag on finishing? (oceanography, reputation)

[tnff]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

One of the problems, and maybe a reason why long writings happen, is the propensity of some teachers giving assignments with a minimum word count.

I used to ask my students when they'd hand an essay in with twice the number of paragraphs than necessary why, if they'd answered the question, they kept writing (and often hurt their grade doing so). The answer invariably incorporated the names of the same two teachers who rewarded length and who always made assignments with a minimum word count.

I so remember having those kinds of assignments as well as minimum page counts. I even had a few teachers and professors who counted average words per sentence. Something like 20 to 28 was considered proper. No wonder so many of us grew up hating classes that were focused on reading and papers.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by tnff

I so remember having those kinds of assignments as well as minimum page counts. I even had a few teachers and professors who counted average words per sentence. Something like 20 to 28 was considered proper. No wonder so many of us grew up hating classes that were focused on reading and papers.

28 average words per sentence? Are you sure about that?

[tnff]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

28 average words per sentence? Are you sure about that?

Yep. I wish I had all the details, but the idea was that educated people used longer sentences, bigger words, and more third person. Something like an 8th grade education was around 12 words; high school graduate was 16-20; and college graduate was 20-28. I assume it grew out of how writers in the 1800s wrote in flowery language. Kind of like this:

"The author of this paper believes ...." vs "I think ..."

Today, we're told to use active voice. But when I was in school, it was third person passive which got the highest grades.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by tnff

Yep. I wish I had all the details, but the idea was that educated people used longer sentences, bigger words, and more third person. Something like an 8th grade education was around 12 words; high school graduate was 16-20; and college graduate was 20-28. I assume it grew out of how writers in the 1800s wrote in flowery language. Kind of like this:

"The author of this paper believes ...." vs "I think ..."

Today, we're told to use active voice. But when I was in school, it was third person passive which got the highest grades.

Passive voice is not the devil, but it should definitely be the infrequent exception and not the rule. I didn’t realize that passive voice was broadly preferred in recent history. When were you in school?

[rabbit33]

Originally Posted by tnff

Yep. I wish I had all the details, but the idea was that educated people used longer sentences, bigger words, and more third person. Something like an 8th grade education was around 12 words; high school graduate was 16-20; and college graduate was 20-28....

Well, that's a very simplistic view. Consider the differences amongst Ernest Hemingway, Raymond Chandler, William Faulkner, and Thomas Wolfe: all highly educated authors but with very different styles of writing. Throw in Charlotte Bronte, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Samuel Eliot Morison, David McCullough, and Mickey Spillane and you've got even more diversity.

Rules of thumb like above are in my opinion mostly for lazy people who don't want to actually read the piece in question and make up their own minds.

[tnff]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

Passive voice is not the devil, but it should definitely be the infrequent exception and not the rule. I didn’t realize that passive voice was broadly preferred in recent history. When were you in school?

Finished college in the 80s. Coworkers just a few years older than me do pretty much everything in 3rd person passive.

One of the reasons we were taught to use 3rd person was to put the emphasis on what was being said and not the person saying it; that first person in formal writing was egotistical. Likewise, that active voice sounded like you were giving commands and/or talking down to the reader; that your writing should lead the reader to the point so they conclude that themselves rather than telling them the point. First person active was only for informal usage like a letter between close friends.

Must have been a lot of us taught that way because the Air Force had a lot of training on how to write first person active.

[MrRational]

Originally Posted by tnff

Are Gen Eds in college useful or just a drag on finishing?

Some people, including way too many College graduates, just don't seem to understand what College is supposed to be about.
Most probably never even belonged there.

[farm fatale]

Originally Posted by redguard57

In Europe they are able to front-load into their high school what for us is the first ~1 to 2 years of college. They can get through their bachelor degrees in 3 years or less as a result.

Our education system screws up imo in the middle school years. We waste about 2 years and I think it starts there.

Yes, all the classes that I had to take here in the US in college (as an adult student, when I moved here), I already took in Europe in high school. Some even in middle school. At one point I went to the head of Math department in college here in the US. I told him that I studied Beginning Algebra and Geometry in 8 and 9th grade. He asked me were I was from and after I told him, he knew that I was not lying. He gave me permission to enroll in more advanced Math classes and not waste my time.

Except Medical School, Architecture, and a few more (I forgot), most of the bachelor degrees in Europe take 3 years.

I think that general education classes are very important. A foreign language offers you the possibility to read and learn about a new culture, people, cuisine, history etc. Art and music are also helpful. Sports too, not to mention Grammar, basic Math, Logic and History. I would make Logic mandatory in high school. And a very useful class would be: Moral principles and etiquette.

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by farm fatale

Yes, all the classes that I had to take here in the US in college (as an adult student, when I moved here), I already took in Europe in high school. Some even in middle school. At one point I went to the head of Math department in college here in the US. I told him that I studied Beginning Algebra and Geometry in 8 and 9th grade. He asked me were I was from and after I told him, he knew that I was not lying. He gave me permission to enroll in more advanced Math classes and not waste my time.

Except Medical School, Architecture, and a few more (I forgot), most of the bachelor degrees in Europe take 3 years.

I think that general education classes are very important. A foreign language offers you the possibility to read and learn about a new culture, people, cuisine, history etc. Art and music are also helpful. Sports too, not to mention Grammar, basic Math, Logic and History. I would make Logic mandatory in high school. And a very useful class would be: Moral principles and etiquette.

Most students in the U.S. planning to go to college take algebra I, algebra II, and geometry by 10th grade. I don't understand why the head of a college math department be surprised you had taken these classes.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

Most students in the U.S. planning to go to college take algebra I, algebra II, and geometry by 10th grade. I don't understand why the head of a college math department be surprised you had taken these classes.

Or at the least by the end of 11th.

I had occasion when the school I taught at was desirable for the exchange student organizations to teach a number of European students, mostly from Switzerland and the Nordic countries and one from New Zealand.

All of them were nominally listed as Seniors for our purposes and all of them still had at least one more year of high school to go when they went back home. The Swiss kids had two years. Then the draft.