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Students who AP test out of the first in a sequence of courses find themselves behind in the follow-on courses. High school AP classes apparently don't provide an adequate background.
My son would agree with your first statement. I think his issue was that he had taken AP biology his junior year. So he had not taken biology for a year and a half, while his BIO 2 classmates had just take a very rigorous biology course. He got a C in the BIO 2 course, which was his only C in college.
He had no criticism of his AP Biology class in HS. OTOH, his AP government teacher did not cover the required material for the AP Government exam. She fell behind in covering the material and rushed through the last couple months. That was the only 4 he received on the 7 AP exams he took.
Why would they bother? If they want to weed out students, that's pretty easy to do. No need for them to create complex schemes to do it. Just add another couple impossible questions to the already impossible exam and another 20% of the class will change majors. If they wanted to eliminate students entirely, just require the same Intro to Physics class that physics majors take for all freshmen. Half will drop out or change colleges entirely.
I mean that they intentionally add a few topics in order to justify not allowing students to AP out of the weedout classes.
A better idea would maybe be to have classes specifically designed for students who took the AP class in high school for example, “Bio for AP students” could include the Bio 1 topics that were missed by AP Bio, plus all of the Bio 2 topics.
I mean that they intentionally add a few topics in order to justify not allowing students to AP out of the weedout classes.
A better idea would maybe be to have classes specifically designed for students who took the AP class in high school for example, “Bio for AP students” could include the Bio 1 topics that were missed by AP Bio, plus all of the Bio 2 topics.
But again, why would they bother? While there are undoubtably some teachers/professors who spend effort thinking of ways to screw students, for most that's just extra effort they would have to put in when the system will take care of itself. The possibilities are:
a. Really super brilliant students who took AP and can easily skip the weedout class into the follow on and ace the follow on with little effort.
b. Smart students who took AP and use the AP to skip the useless gen eds, but don't skip the weedout classes. This gives them two advantages -- skipping the gen eds means they have a lower-class load and can spend their study time more wisely on the courses that matter; and they go into the weedout classes having already taken much of the material so they get an A in that class setting themselves up better for later on. Net result is higher GPA and lower workload.
c. Smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes, result being they struggle in the follow-on courses and get lower grades, having to work to pull their GPA up for the remainder of their college time.
d. Less smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes only to be unable to handle the follow on and get weeded out there.
So why would they need to design around the AP? The geniuses are still geniuses; the good students get through with more or less work, but still get it; and the weeds still get weeded out.
But professors often won’t allow you to hand a paper in early, and wont accept it until after the dorms close for Thanksgiving, and you have to hand it in in person, not online. Plus, they give an in person exam the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving after the dorms are closed, and give you a 0 if you miss it for any reason.
That's a college with awful professors. Usually when the dorms are closed, school is closed.
Long story short (the dorm lost electricity for a short period time, my alarm clock didn't go off, my roommate kicked me out for most of the night, etc) for a variety of reasons, I overslept and missed my final. I called my professor. He allowed me to take the final later that same day.
Thanksgiving is the worse travel time in the USA. It's the only holiday when everyone, regardless of religion, travels. I'm sorry you had awful professor.
But again, why would they bother? While there are undoubtably some teachers/professors who spend effort thinking of ways to screw students, for most that's just extra effort they would have to put in when the system will take care of itself. The possibilities are:
a. Really super brilliant students who took AP and can easily skip the weedout class into the follow on and ace the follow on with little effort.
b. Smart students who took AP and use the AP to skip the useless gen eds, but don't skip the weedout classes. This gives them two advantages -- skipping the gen eds means they have a lower-class load and can spend their study time more wisely on the courses that matter; and they go into the weedout classes having already taken much of the material so they get an A in that class setting themselves up better for later on. Net result is higher GPA and lower workload.
c. Smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes, result being they struggle in the follow-on courses and get lower grades, having to work to pull their GPA up for the remainder of their college time.
d. Less smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes only to be unable to handle the follow on and get weeded out there.
So why would they need to design around the AP? The geniuses are still geniuses; the good students get through with more or less work, but still get it; and the weeds still get weeded out.
Actually, in real life, AP courses in high school cover more information than their introductory counterparts from college.
I think there's some conception that AP classes replace advanced college classes, which they don't. Just like the high school classes are survey classes so are the college ones (albeit in a bit more depth).
The two AP classes I'm most familiar with, Psych and World History, would both be multiple classes in college just on the basis of what's in the AP mandated syllabus/curriculum to be covered for each. US History, Government and Euro History are similar.
Bio, which I know about because I had to work with the instructor of it so much, covers a couple different college courses.
Lit and Lang, not so much but you have to overlay the writing piece in those in addition to the reading components where English Composition is at least one separate course in college if not two (I say the latter because when I was in college it was two classes, Comp I followed by Comp II. I exempted out of II due to my grade in I but had to replace the class with a Lit course. Now that was 50 years ago so may have changed).
Calc AB is a different animal somewhat and I've had numerous college Calc instructors tell me they wish high schools didn't offer it because of the "bad habits" the students that have to be broken in college Calc. Never had Calc BC.
Art is Art and I never did get a handle on it. We never really had a Foreign Language AP because of a lack of numbers nor did we do any Chem or Physics. Those were due to a lack of instructor desire and, to an extent, lab equipment, or rather the fact our Science teachers as a group generally refused to do labs, even the Bio teacher who could never figure out why his students always did poorly on the exam (lack of lab time was only one teacher based reason). He's been replaced since I retired.
But professors often won’t allow you to hand a paper in early, and wont accept it until after the dorms close for Thanksgiving, and you have to hand it in in person, not online. Plus, they give an in person exam the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving after the dorms are closed, and give you a 0 if you miss it for any reason.
This doesn't make sense. Why would the college allow professors to do that? And what could the justification by the professors possibly be?
But again, why would they bother? While there are undoubtably some teachers/professors who spend effort thinking of ways to screw students, for most that's just extra effort they would have to put in when the system will take care of itself. The possibilities are:
Another poster said that students should start voting with their feet and refusing to attend colleges that deny credit for AP classes. Then the colleges may need to reconsider their policy, now that it hurts them in the wallet.
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a. Really super brilliant students who took AP and can easily skip the weedout class into the follow on and ace the follow on with little effort.
b. Smart students who took AP and use the AP to skip the useless gen eds, but don't skip the weedout classes. This gives them two advantages -- skipping the gen eds means they have a lower-class load and can spend their study time more wisely on the courses that matter; and they go into the weedout classes having already taken much of the material so they get an A in that class setting themselves up better for later on. Net result is higher GPA and lower workload.
Except that, at least in my case, I needed a full time course load in order to keep my scholarship, and also in order to live in the dorms. So a lighter course load was not an option. Also, the useless gen ends usually increase your GPA, not decrease it.
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c. Smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes, result being they struggle in the follow-on courses and get lower grades, having to work to pull their GPA up for the remainder of their college time.
d. Less smart students who took AP and skip the weedout classes only to be unable to handle the follow on and get weeded out there.
Except that the follow-up classes tend to be easier since they are not weedout classes. I APed out of Calc 1 and 2, and Physics 1 and 2, all weed out classes. So I started with Calc 3 and Physics 3. Calc 3 had no homework, and Physics 3 had a reasonable amount of homework. Both had fairly easy exams that covered the material that was taught. In Physics 3, the lowest grade was dropped. And we were allowed a re-test of an exam where the class average was an 85. Exams were either during the normal class period or on a weeknight. There were provisions for students who had to miss an exam for a legitimate reason. There was no penalty for missing class. You could hand in homework early if you wanted to.
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So why would they need to design around the AP? The geniuses are still geniuses; the good students get through with more or less work, but still get it; and the weeds still get weeded out.
Why is it that you (rightly so) attack K-12 schools for preparing students to be compliant workers at the mill, but you defend college weed-out classes that are focused on preparing students to be compliant “professional” workers who do what they are told, and work 80 hours per week for a meager salary and poor benefits, and who never take any time off, and who willingly work even major holidays for no extra pay?
This doesn't make sense. Why would the college allow professors to do that? And what could the justification by the professors possibly be?
They get away with it because they have tenure. If a student points out that the professor is breaking the rule, the professor just reminds us that they have tenure, they can do anything they want, and there is nothing anybody can do about it. In the rare case that a student does try to escalate it, the dean just says that he/she is aware that professor is a problem, but he/she has tenure, so there is nothing he/she can do about it.
They do what I described to weed out any students who are not going to be compliant employees who work 80 hours a week for a meager salary and poor benefits.
There's a lot to unpack. I wish the CD quote function worked better when you embedded responses within.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Another poster said that students should start voting with their feet and refusing to attend colleges that deny credit for AP classes. Then the colleges may need to reconsider their policy, now that it hurts them in the wallet.
I don't think colleges think voting with their feet hurts them. Just self eliminates a bunch so they don't have to worry about them. In fact, it probably increases the colleges desirability because they can then represent themselves as having a higher standard. That's why, for good or bad, a lot of colleges chase the US News ratings.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Except that, at least in my case, I needed a full time course load in order to keep my scholarship, and also in order to live in the dorms. So a lighter course load was not an option. Also, the useless gen ends usually increase your GPA, not decrease it.
Typical full time course load is usually defined as 12 hours. That's not the same as the typical number of courses in a semester which is closer to 15-18 and sometimes 20 hours. Let's say freshman first semester is English 1, Calc 1, Physics 1+lab, History 1, and Chem 1+lab. That's typically 3 credits each plus 1 for each lab, total 17 credits (as a side note, where I went Calc 1 & 2 were 4 credit classes, but we'll leave that out of the mix). So APing out of History 1, would mean you were only taking 4 classes + 2 labs for a total of just 14 credits. when you consider those gen eds like history, lit, English, etc usually have a lot of reading and big, time consuming, paper assignments, you now have more time to study for the courses that matter and better GPA.
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Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Except that the follow-up classes tend to be easier since they are not weedout classes. I APed out of Calc 1 and 2, and Physics 1 and 2, all weed out classes. So I started with Calc 3 and Physics 3. Calc 3 had no homework, and Physics 3 had a reasonable amount of homework. Both had fairly easy exams that covered the material that was taught. In Physics 3, the lowest grade was dropped. And we were allowed a re-test of an exam where the class average was an 85. Exams were either during the normal class period or on a weeknight. There were provisions for students who had to miss an exam for a legitimate reason. There was no penalty for missing class. You could hand in homework early if you wanted to.
I never found the follow on classes to be easier. They depended upon what was in the previous courses so if AP didn't teach material that was taught in the previous course, you walked into the higher course expected to know that material. Those things you describe seem more like quirks of the professor than typical course loads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
Why is it that you (rightly so) attack K-12 schools for preparing students to be compliant workers at the mill, but you defend college weed-out classes that are focused on preparing students to be compliant “professional” workers who do what they are told, and work 80 hours per week for a meager salary and poor benefits, and who never take any time off, and who willingly work even major holidays for no extra pay?
Not sure where you're getting your view of weed out classes, but I've never seen that as a purpose. By that point a student is way beyond the compliant factory worker stage and expected to be a knowledge worker and potential leader (whether explicitly stated or not). Self-starting initiative, questioning, deeper thinking are all expectations of the professional graduate.
Even though I hated them while in college, I understand the purpose of weed out classes as a professional in the field. Very simply they do two things -- they separate out those who can't handle the material in that field, and they prepare the rest for what is to come. Initiative, self-discipline, sacrifice now for gain later, and the grit to stick it out are essential in the rest of the program and performance in the field later.
I can see it in interviews and new hires. Those who came through tougher programs don't need to be handheld in the workplace. You can give them general direction and let them go. Those who didn't need specific direction constantly. In fact, we can see early in their careers the ones with the self-starting drive and confidence to take the lead and others, who didn't come through those programs just naturally fall into following.
There's a lot to unpack. I wish the CD quote function worked better when you embedded responses within.
I don't think colleges think voting with their feet hurts them. Just self eliminates a bunch so they don't have to worry about them. In fact, it probably increases the colleges desirability because they can then represent themselves as having a higher standard. That's why, for good or bad, a lot of colleges chase the US News ratings.
True, since colleges want the doormats, not the people like myself who expect to be rewarded for their efforts and achievements.
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Typical full time course load is usually defined as 12 hours. That's not the same as the typical number of courses in a semester which is closer to 15-18 and sometimes 20 hours. Let's say freshman first semester is English 1, Calc 1, Physics 1+lab, History 1, and Chem 1+lab. That's typically 3 credits each plus 1 for each lab, total 17 credits (as a side note, where I went Calc 1 & 2 were 4 credit classes, but we'll leave that out of the mix). So APing out of History 1, would mean you were only taking 4 classes + 2 labs for a total of just 14 credits.
In my case, I always made sure that I had at least 16 credits, so that I could drop a 4 credit class where I ran into trouble, and still have 12 or more credits and keep my scholarship and dorm room. Remember, in my case, college was basically a game of keeping my scholarship at all costs.
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when you consider those gen eds like history, lit, English, etc usually have a lot of reading and big, time consuming, paper assignments, you now have more time to study for the courses that matter and better GPA.
Depending on the requirements, you may be able to take classes and/or professors that don’t expect a lot of time-consuming assignments.
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I never found the follow on classes to be easier. They depended upon what was in the previous courses so if AP didn't teach material that was taught in the previous course, you walked into the higher course expected to know that material.
I got an easy A in Physics 3 and Calc 3 with zero effort in either class. So either they were easy, or the AP classes sufficiently prepared me.
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Those things you describe seem more like quirks of the professor than typical course loads.
I think my college intentionally assigned the hard professors to the weedout classes and the easy professors to the next level classes. I was seemingly one of the first to AP out of the weedout classes.
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Not sure where you're getting your view of weed out classes, but I've never seen that as a purpose. By that point a student is way beyond the compliant factory worker stage and expected to be a knowledge worker and potential leader (whether explicitly stated or not). Self-starting initiative, questioning, deeper thinking are all expectations of the professional graduate.
Even though I hated them while in college, I understand the purpose of weed out classes as a professional in the field. Very simply they do two things -- they separate out those who can't handle the material in that field, and they prepare the rest for what is to come. Initiative, self-discipline, sacrifice now for gain later, and the grit to stick it out are essential in the rest of the program and performance in the field later.
I can see it in interviews and new hires. Those who came through tougher programs don't need to be handheld in the workplace. You can give them general direction and let them go. Those who didn't need specific direction constantly. In fact, we can see early in their careers the ones with the self-starting drive and confidence to take the lead and others, who didn't come through those programs just naturally fall into following.
I think we just had different experiences in college.
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So, painful as it is, weedout works.
No, for the tuition we are paying, we deserve professors who teach, not professors who work against us.
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