Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-22-2022, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by YorktownGal View Post
...


1. I volunteered at my kids' school library. Honestly, I have no idea why the "Giver" is so popular.

2. No I wouldn't ban the "Giver." The librarian and I disliked on the Barbie series for preschool & first graders. OTOH, the girls sure loved those pink Barbie books. Much to my horror (/s), Barbie remained on the shelf.

3. There were no Bibles on the library shelves. Never mind, there are different versions of the Bible so deciding which one to use would be an issue. I doubt any student would check out a Bible, Talmud or Koran anyway.
I think you may be missing a few important points here.

I think before a book should be 'banned', one ought to know why the book is popular and why it was chosen in the first place for inclusion in the school library. For example, the goofy parents who made up the PABBIS group (Parents Against Bad Books In Schools) seemed to think that the principal personally read every book chosen for the library. They didn't appear to know a thing about how books were selected.

Barbie books wouldn't be my choice either, but then again, I'm not into reading teen books. I'm sad that Walter Farley's books -- once a staple -- aren't very popular anymore. But just getting kids to read by choice -- even what they read is not what we like -- has value.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-22-2022, 04:43 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 474,708 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Let me give you an example of where I think people need to use better judgement about such issues, regarding age appropriateness. This was an English teacher in the school where I was vice-principal at the time. He had as assigned reading a novel that included a graphic description of a teen girl being raped on a pool table. Assigned reading for 12 year-olds? The principal was too gentle with the teacher, who decided to go ahead with the assigned reading. I intervened and laid it out very clearly: "Require 12 year olds to read that book...get fired". End of story.

So when I ended up on a committee within the school system to decide such issues about school libraries, my focus was on what was age-appropriate, and a couple of times I voted down particular books for middle school libraries, saying that perhaps they were appropriate at the high school level. Censorship!! Bah! If anyone wants the book that badly, they can go to the public library, a bookstore, or online. There's a time and place...
What you did was censorship in the easily scapegoat-able ”Age appropriate” cop out. You can dress it up however you want, but that’s what it was. And nice to know you ruled (thank the Lord, ruled is past tense) your school with an iron fist, “my way or the Highway” mentality. Just another reason you were comprehensively unfit to manage any organization, let alone a school, thankfully your career has long since ended.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2022, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterRice View Post
What you did was censorship in the easily scapegoat-able ”Age appropriate” cop out. You can dress it up however you want, but that’s what it was. And nice to know you ruled (thank the Lord, ruled is past tense) your school with an iron fist, “my way or the Highway” mentality. Just another reason you were comprehensively unfit to manage any organization, let alone a school, thankfully your career has long since ended.
You're making me laugh.

In the particular case I was talking about, the English teacher was forcing 12 year-old students to read a novel that involved rather graphic rape on a pool table. And why was he doing it? Because he liked the writing style of the author. There wasn't another author with a less hot topic where that style could be demonstrated.

Ever hear of movie ratings?

Perhaps you should look at it another way. Let's say we had left him alone and a parent had gone to the "Washington Post" or one of the television news stations in the area? You think he would have enjoyed that? If there had been some rising chorus of parents demanding he be fired...you think he would have enjoyed that? You think that would have been good for the school community? You think as an administrator I wanted to spend time justifying this teacher's choice of novels (not in the curriculum he was hired to teach) to the press, to the PTA, to the School Board? No thank you.

The book was readily available at book stores, the public library, and probably the high school library.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2022, 06:08 PM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,029,433 times
Reputation: 34883
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You're making me laugh.

In the particular case I was talking about, the English teacher was forcing 12 year-old students to read a novel that involved rather graphic rape on a pool table. And why was he doing it? Because he liked the writing style of the author. There wasn't another author with a less hot topic where that style could be demonstrated.

Ever hear of movie ratings?

Perhaps you should look at it another way. Let's say we had left him alone and a parent had gone to the "Washington Post" or one of the television news stations in the area? You think he would have enjoyed that? If there had been some rising chorus of parents demanding he be fired...you think he would have enjoyed that? You think that would have been good for the school community? You think as an administrator I wanted to spend time justifying this teacher's choice of novels (not in the curriculum he was hired to teach) to the press, to the PTA, to the School Board? No thank you.

The book was readily available at book stores, the public library, and probably the high school library.
I'm ok that you made a decision on age appropriateness. That doesn't bother me. Even if we were to disagree on the decision, at least it's on grounds we could discuss. What I'm more concerned about is your principal put you on the hot seat when he should have made a firm decision but wanted to be Mr Nice Guy to the staff. Covers his butt while giving him room to toss you in front of a bus if needed. I'm also concerned about a teacher that would need such an ultimatum to get the message. Makes me wonder what else that teacher might be doing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2022, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'm ok that you made a decision on age appropriateness. That doesn't bother me. Even if we were to disagree on the decision, at least it's on grounds we could discuss. What I'm more concerned about is your principal put you on the hot seat when he should have made a firm decision but wanted to be Mr Nice Guy to the staff. Covers his butt while giving him room to toss you in front of a bus if needed. I'm also concerned about a teacher that would need such an ultimatum to get the message. Makes me wonder what else that teacher might be doing.
Thank you for your post.

Let me clarify one thing. I volunteered to step in...it wasn't pushed on me. But yes, she was sort of trying to be Mrs. Nice Guy. But I'll even stick up for her a bit. He was a new, young teacher, and she didn't want to come down hard on him and disappoint him.

And I do think that there was nothing else to worry about regarding that particular very young teacher. However, he was extremely liberal. And sometimes the young teachers need to listen to those more experienced, and then, perhaps, come to some sort of compromise in how they proceed.

I think our other poster is forgetting something...or doesn't realize that: Teachers have a boss...it's in their contract...and it's the principal. And, depending how it may be worded in a contract, teachers are expected to use curriculum materials that are approved; and this book wasn't...that had nothing to do with me; that was the decision of curriculum committees. Principals have bosses, too...superintendent(s), and most of us know what the expectations are for our performances as principals. And ending up on the front page of the "Washington Post" (which I saw happen to a principal I knew well) or being a story on the local news, or being sued...is not one of those expectations. And superintendents have bosses, too...the School Board...and the State Ed Department. And the School Board has bosses, too...the voters and the State Ed Department.

And I got to thinking after that last post that this really wasn't censorship. Any student could have CHOSEN to read that book for a book report, or for leisure reading. But this was being forced onto all students...no choice of their own, and no choice by the parents. And I've seen that kind of thing done before, and then the student of an objecting parent has to be excused from that particular assignment (in this kind of case from days of discussions), is given an alternative to read, and the teacher is required to have some sort of lesson plan for that individual or small group. It gets to be a mess...and it's not worth it to the school, to the kids, or, in the long run, to the teacher. It can distract from everything else going on in the school if the **** hits the fan. And today it sure wouldn't look good on the internet when the teacher applies for some other job in the future. I had to tow the line as an earth science teacher when I would get to the earth history/evolution unit.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2022, 07:33 PM
 
Location: Central IL
20,726 posts, read 16,355,663 times
Reputation: 50373
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
My parents were too shy to talk to me about sex, so they bought me a book.

It's sad to be afraid of knowledge.
Haha - my dad gave me his copy of Masters and Johnson "Human Sexual Response" (the 1966 edition) when I was 16.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-22-2022, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
Haha - my dad gave me his copy of Masters and Johnson "Human Sexual Response" (the 1966 edition) when I was 16.
But, oh well...I didn't learn from books on this topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2022, 05:02 AM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 474,708 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'm ok that you made a decision on age appropriateness. That doesn't bother me. Even if we were to disagree on the decision, at least it's on grounds we could discuss. What I'm more concerned about is your principal put you on the hot seat when he should have made a firm decision but wanted to be Mr Nice Guy to the staff. Covers his butt while giving him room to toss you in front of a bus if needed. I'm also concerned about a teacher that would need such an ultimatum to get the message. Makes me wonder what else that teacher might be doing.
His school was full of problems by his own admission, but the same poster also claims his school / district was among the top of the state. Give me a break, which one is it?

Also love that he basically agreed with me even though he probably didn’t realize it (his post was just a bunch of talking without saying anything). He outright acknowledged that at best he was delaying the inevitable as I’d say that by 6th - 7th grade, most kids have at least a rudimentary understanding of what rape is and what it consists of.

The whole “age appropriate” cop out wasn’t the real reason - anyone who could put two and two together could see that. Phetaroi just played the “age appropriate” card because it’s an easy go-to that most people won’t object to, then he proceeded to iron fist steamroll the teacher by issuing an ultimatum under that false pretense.

As I said before, -everyone- should be down on their hands and knees thanking whatever deity they believe in that his career is over.

Last edited by StarryKnight1; 12-23-2022 at 05:17 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2022, 05:11 AM
 
Location: In the elevator!
835 posts, read 474,708 times
Reputation: 1422
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think our other poster is forgetting something...or doesn't realize that: Teachers have a boss...
News flash: Everybody has a boss.

If my boss started iron-fisting ultimatums in such a manner I’d tell them where exactly they can place it, quit, and find another job. Thankfully most competent managers don’t act in such a way, and I’ve never encountered one, I love my work team.

If you think that steamrolling ultimatums is an appropriate way to manage any organization, you’re unfit to be a manager. But nothing is ever your fault, everything is always “forced upon you by upper management”. Somebody is always to blame, but it’s never yourself.

I think the real problem is double sided, first that you have a real problem with personal responsibility (“BUT I WAS FORCED BY UPPER MANAGEMENT TO DO IT!” Ad nauseam), and that you’re an order taker who does whatever he is told regardless of judgement or morality.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-23-2022, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,766 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterRice View Post
His school was full of problems by his own admission, but the same poster also claims his school / district was among the top of the state. Give me a break, which one is it?

Also love that he basically agreed with me even though he probably didn’t realize it (his post was just a bunch of talking without saying anything). He outright acknowledged that at best he was delaying the inevitable as I’d say that by 6th - 7th grade, most kids have at least a rudimentary understanding of what rape is and what it consists of.

The whole “age appropriate” cop out wasn’t the real reason - anyone who could put two and two together could see that. Phetaroi just played the “age appropriate” card because it’s an easy go-to that most people won’t object to, then he proceeded to iron fist steamroll the teacher by issuing an ultimatum under that false pretense.

As I said before, -everyone- should be down on their hands and knees thanking whatever deity they believe in that his career is over.
No, I never said my school was "full of problems". We were, in fact, noted for being a school that ran smoothly. But no matter how smoothly a school runs, over 20 years of course there will be problems...as with any organization.

Age appropriateness is determined by lots of factors, including parent input.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:03 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top