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Old 12-23-2022, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32913

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterRice View Post
News flash: Everybody has a boss.

If my boss started iron-fisting ultimatums in such a manner I’d tell them where exactly they can place it, quit, and find another job. Thankfully most competent managers don’t act in such a way, and I’ve never encountered one, I love my work team.

If you think that steamrolling ultimatums is an appropriate way to manage any organization, you’re unfit to be a manager. But nothing is ever your fault, everything is always “forced upon you by upper management”. Somebody is always to blame, but it’s never yourself.

I think the real problem is double sided, first that you have a real problem with personal responsibility (“BUT I WAS FORCED BY UPPER MANAGEMENT TO DO IT!” Ad nauseam), and that you’re an order taker who does whatever he is told regardless of judgement or morality.
Yes, I took orders from the people who paid me. That's what you do when you work for someone else. You follow the contract you agreed to and signed, and in return they pay you. Pretty much the same in every job. People who work in schools are not independent contractors. And as for teachers, most contracts will have a clause along the lines of "and other responsibilities as assigned by the principal".
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Old 12-23-2022, 07:12 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterRice View Post
His school was full of problems by his own admission, but the same poster also claims his school / district was among the top of the state. Give me a break, which one is it?

Also love that he basically agreed with me even though he probably didn’t realize it (his post was just a bunch of talking without saying anything). He outright acknowledged that at best he was delaying the inevitable as I’d say that by 6th - 7th grade, most kids have at least a rudimentary understanding of what rape is and what it consists of.

The whole “age appropriate” cop out wasn’t the real reason - anyone who could put two and two together could see that. Phetaroi just played the “age appropriate” card because it’s an easy go-to that most people won’t object to, then he proceeded to iron fist steamroll the teacher by issuing an ultimatum under that false pretense.

As I said before, -everyone- should be down on their hands and knees thanking whatever deity they believe in that his career is over.
If you follow this forum at any length, you will note that he and I seldom agree on things. But in any organization, there is a structure. And there are things that are appropriate and inappropriate. One of those things is employees need to understand when there is a time for disagreement and that when a decision is made, the decision is made. Continuing beyond that point is inappropriate. If it gets beyond that point to where the supervisor has to come down iron fisted as you call it, well that's on the employee. And if the employee continues to resist direction from the supervisor, perhaps they are in the wrong job.

And I've been in a role where the boss wants to play "friends with everyone" and I have to be the one who does the dirty work. That's a boss who is in the wrong job.

In this case Phetaroi said it was a new, young teacher. All young employees get a chance to learn what having a job means. Hopefully he learned.
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Old 12-23-2022, 08:23 AM
 
7,324 posts, read 4,121,162 times
Reputation: 16788
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterRice View Post
If you think that steamrolling ultimatums is an appropriate way to manage any organization, you’re unfit to be a manager. But nothing is ever your fault, everything is always “forced upon you by upper management”. Somebody is always to blame, but it’s never yourself.

I think the real problem is double sided, first that you have a real problem with personal responsibility (“BUT I WAS FORCED BY UPPER MANAGEMENT TO DO IT!” Ad nauseam), and that you’re an order taker who does whatever he is told regardless of judgement or morality.
What does this has to do with the discussion?
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Old 12-23-2022, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32913
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
If you follow this forum at any length, you will note that he and I seldom agree on things. But in any organization, there is a structure. And there are things that are appropriate and inappropriate. One of those things is employees need to understand when there is a time for disagreement and that when a decision is made, the decision is made. Continuing beyond that point is inappropriate. If it gets beyond that point to where the supervisor has to come down iron fisted as you call it, well that's on the employee. And if the employee continues to resist direction from the supervisor, perhaps they are in the wrong job.

And I've been in a role where the boss wants to play "friends with everyone" and I have to be the one who does the dirty work. That's a boss who is in the wrong job.

In this case Phetaroi said it was a new, young teacher. All young employees get a chance to learn what having a job means. Hopefully he learned.
Of his own accord -- the teacher in question went on to have an interesting career in often non-traditional educational settings. And I don't want anyone to misunderstand. I think he was a very good teacher, a good person, very dedicated, but who in this one case didn't understand the reactions that he would have gotten from quite a few parents had he continued. In fact, I will say this for him...he was the one who notified the administration that he wanted to teach from this particular novel, which is a pretty good indication that he knew he was on shaky ground. But there is an art to knowing when to push the envelope, particularly in the public school system...because we are accountable to the public. Like all young teachers he learned and, from what I observed, enjoyed teaching at our school for a couple of years before moving on...of his own accord.

And the other poster misunderstands something...perhaps I didn't explain it well. When I told that young teacher: "Teach that book, get fired", it wasn't me telling him I would fire him. I had no such power at the time. In fact, I didn't tell him that he couldn't teach the book; that was the principal's decision. It was me saying, in essence, 'teach this book and invite a firestorm of parent complaints', and whenever there is a firestorm around a teacher in a public school system, it's usually the teacher who ultimately suffers some consequences. This was not, as the poster indicated, an "iron fist" approach. This was actually a 'have you really thought this through' approach.
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Old 12-27-2022, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,796 posts, read 40,996,819 times
Reputation: 62174
If you have no objection with a movie theater only offering age appropriate films to minors, you should have no problem with libraries doing the same with books. Let mom and dad check out the sexually explicit children's books on their library cards.
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Old 12-27-2022, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32913
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
If you have no objection with a movie theater only offering age appropriate films to minors, you should have no problem with libraries doing the same with books. Let mom and dad check out the sexually explicit children's books on their library cards.
That's basically my feeling, as well.

The difficult question is -- where do you draw the line(s).

A school library, particularly in elementary and middle school, doesn't have to be a repository for ALL literature of ALL types. Nor, for that matter, does a public library have to be a repository for ALL literature and media of all types. The challenge is figuring out what's appropriate and what isn't.
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Old 12-30-2022, 06:46 PM
 
Location: So Cal
10,028 posts, read 9,502,237 times
Reputation: 10449
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
Just in: Librarians Against Libraries

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/ki...aith-kids-book
A library in New York and Indianapolis finally allowed him to host. Both drawing record crowds.

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/ki...ly-country.amp

https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/ki...ok-reading.amp
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