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Old 01-29-2023, 12:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
How much "initiative" would one expect from a new hire just out of college ?

I remember when I got hired out of college I felt like a small fish in the big pond.
I was overwhelmed and not feeling very confident. Thankfully my company assigned mentors to all new hires.
Agree. But what about six months later? Or a couple years later? Were you still stuck on day 1 or did you grow and advance beyond that? Did you still need hand holding a couple years later?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Well if you know all that then why even bother interviewing/hiring non MIT graduates ?
I wish these conversations wouldn't keep focusing on "MIT" (or Ivy or similar terms) because it makes it seem like it's one or nothing when in fact there are a lot of very good R1's and R2's out there that turn out engineers as good or better than MIT. It actually misses the key points of the conversation when education gets reduced to "the Ivies vs everyone else) (Yes, I know MIT is not an actual Ivy)).
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Old 01-29-2023, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
No, I think the point is, that the bright, self-motivated go-getter kids are the ones that get accepted to MIT and its peer schools, while the ones who were helicopter-parented, with mom or dad helping them with homework every step of the way are the ones who know MIT et al would be "too hard", so they apply elsewhere.

IOW, MIT & peers get the cream of the crop. That's what the hiring managers are seeing. They're also seeing what "not the cream of the crop" looks like as well. The latter aren't able to rise to what (according to the OP) used to be the normal expectations of the job. They take one small step toward addressing a complex task (well within their educational background), and come back wanting a cookie for their effort, and direction on what to do next.
Where I disagree with you and the OP is that most students are forced to choose a college based on financial reasons. There may be too students who could get accepted at MIT but realize that given their life and career goals, it doesn’t make sense to go into debt. But that doesn’t mean they are lazy or unmotivated.

I’ll respond later to other points.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:12 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,668,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Where I disagree with you and the OP is that most students are forced to choose a college based on financial reasons. There may be too students who could get accepted at MIT but realize that given their life and career goals, it doesn’t make sense to go into debt. But that doesn’t mean they are lazy or unmotivated.

I’ll respond later to other points.
I’m not going to deny that most people choose based on financial reasons, but I would wager a guess that people don’t go straight for the cheapest option. Most people weigh the pros and cons of a few options and end up choosing based on which school will offer the best ROI. I know others who have parents who may have saved enough for their child to attend a state school, but anything in excess of that would need to be covered by the student in the form of loans or scholarships.

1) Most elite schools provide significant need-based aid to the extent that attending them is comparable to (if not cheaper than) attending state universities (note that I said *most* and not *all*).

2)Even for students who can’t get the need-based aid, there is a wide array of schools ranging from MIT down to a small commuter school with few majors. Chances are if they get into MIT, they will also get significant scholarships from either the flagship state university, #2 state university, and/or good (but not necessarily elite) private universities. I say this as a person who was in a magnet program where everyone went to college. I recall very few students who ended up going to the local university, which was still a commuter school at the time. Some did end up finishing there, but I would say probably 95% ended up going away to college. Some did end up coming back home later, but I think the one person I know who did that had gotten sick and needed more help with medical care than he could get away from home.

3) I know people from a third group who went to the flagship state university or somewhere else good after starting at community college. If your school allows it for our major (not all do), it’s also a great way to save money. The problem I saw with this is that several of them didn’t have the courses they needed for their major and ended up taking longer at the 4-year-university.

4) A lot of states have very generous scholarship programs to encourage people to stay in state. FL’s bright futures even provides some money for private universities.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, I know. It was an example to make a point (no pun intended). I could have as easily picked USNA, USAFA, USCGA, USMMA, or even places like Citadel, VMI, TAMU, etc that don't have a service commitment. I only picked USMA because of location.
I thought at least some of those schools had a service commitment, but I could be wrong.

Quote:
Let's do "what if?" What if you hadn't AP'd out of that engineering class and had to take the exam the night before Thanksgiving? What would you have done with your scholarship at risk?
Given my personality at the time, I would have showed the professor the university handbook saying no exams allowed after 6 PM the Wednesday night before Thanksgiving. He would have said that he had tenure, so he can do whatever he wants, as well as that since I'm an engineer, I have to learn to make sacrifices. I likely would have gone to the department chair, who likely would have said that regardless of the handbook, professors have the authority to run class as they choose. I would have then likely gone to the dean, who would have said he's aware that this professor is a problem, but that he has tenure so there is nothing he can do. I would have ended up with no choice but to suck it up take the exam when scheduled. I likely would have made a few enemies. I probably would have had to get a hotel room for the night, and then travel home in the morning, since I don't think Amtrak had a train late enough that I could have taken, and I didn't have a car on campus at the time, and I didn't have any friends I was close enough with at the time to stay with, and the dorms closed at 6 PM for the break. And I would have seriously considered whether or not engineering was for me, and if I should have changed majors.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:54 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
I’m not going to deny that most people choose based on financial reasons, but I would wager a guess that people don’t go straight for the cheapest option. Most people weigh the pros and cons of a few options and end up choosing based on which school will offer the best ROI. I know others who have parents who may have saved enough for their child to attend a state school, but anything in excess of that would need to be covered by the student in the form of loans or scholarships.

1) Most elite schools provide significant need-based aid to the extent that attending them is comparable to (if not cheaper than) attending state universities (note that I said *most* and not *all*).
As I keep saying, if you are from a high cost of living area, the financial aid formula does not take that into account. It treats you as if you are rich, even if you are not. I know that firsthand, since I filled out both FAFSFA and PROFILE, and did not get any need based financial aid at any college.

Quote:
2)Even for students who can’t get the need-based aid, there is a wide array of schools ranging from MIT down to a small commuter school with few majors. Chances are if they get into MIT, they will also get significant scholarships from either the flagship state university, #2 state university, and/or good (but not necessarily elite) private universities. I say this as a person who was in a magnet program where everyone went to college. I recall very few students who ended up going to the local university, which was still a commuter school at the time. Some did end up finishing there, but I would say probably 95% ended up going away to college. Some did end up coming back home later, but I think the one person I know who did that had gotten sick and needed more help with medical care than he could get away from home.
Most of the state schools in my state, at the time, did not offer my major. The one that did was further away than I wanted to consider. I would have applied there as a last resort, but I was offered the full scholarship to the school I attended before getting to that point.

Quote:
3) I know people from a third group who went to the flagship state university or somewhere else good after starting at community college. If your school allows it for our major (not all do), it’s also a great way to save money. The problem I saw with this is that several of them didn’t have the courses they needed for their major and ended up taking longer at the 4-year-university.
And it means losing out on the on-campus living experience for the first 2 years, which, I would say was by far the most valuable part of college.

Quote:
4) A lot of states have very generous scholarship programs to encourage people to stay in state. FL’s bright futures even provides some money for private universities.
I could be wrong, but I do not recall my state having such a program.
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Old 01-30-2023, 06:59 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You asked for examples so I gave some examples. Didn't say it was an exhaustive list. Perhaps I should have added USMA. Just a train ride up the Hudson from you. Free tuition and room and board. Guaranteed good job at the end. Instructors who really want you to succeed. Of course the weed-out is pretty tough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I am well aware of the service commitment. But the reward is pretty big in terms of ROI.
Keep in mind that the military is not a job that everybody would want. It can be a great job for some, or a bad job for others.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with my decision to live close to family so that my children can have their grandparents as part of their life. Why is that such a problem for you? What good is having a "better" job if it does not allow for the lifestyle that I want for myself or my family? What good does more money do when it can't buy you the lifestyle that one would want? In my case, graduating without debt allows me to live here.
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Old 01-30-2023, 07:10 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,694 posts, read 58,012,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
How much "initiative" would one expect from a new hire just out of college ?
...
"initiative" comes long before college. (unless you are a product of the USA Public School system)

All you have to do is hire a few and watch them sit on their hands waiting for instruction. Where someone with initiative KNOWS what to do and finds their own way to accomplish it (often asking co-workers). PS kids know NOT to ask peers, as they typically are also sitting on their hands wondering what needs to be done, and to be told exactly how to do it.

I don't find college (or Jr College) grads prepared for a career, UNLESS they have taken on some personal responsibility BEFORE graduating. Such as living on their own, providing their own income and tuition, getting and paying loans, making responsible choices, owning and maintaining their own car.... Employers are not equipped to train new employees in basic skills + help them grow up.
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Old 01-30-2023, 07:33 AM
 
9,952 posts, read 6,668,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Keep in mind that the military is not a job that everybody would want. It can be a great job for some, or a bad job for others.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with my decision to live close to family so that my children can have their grandparents as part of their life. Why is that such a problem for you? What good is having a "better" job if it does not allow for the lifestyle that I want for myself or my family? What good does more money do when it can't buy you the lifestyle that one would want? In my case, graduating without debt allows me to live here.
No one has a problem with it. The issue is that you seem to not understand that *general* discussions about the OP do not reflect the experience of a single individual. The OP here is whether college is intellectual or career preparation, and the point many make is that even if some are advertised as intellectual prep (namely the more prestigious schools), those also offer indirect career prep in the way in which they require students to challenge themselves. They may not be able to go home regularly, typically introduce students to people they didn’t know from their K-12 years, and require students to become more independent.

A lot of people don’t approach college as the end all and be all. The age at first marriage now is around 30, which gives people a lot of time to try living in different areas before settling down and starting a family. I work with quite a few people who went away from college/grad school before they decided to come back when they had kids. We don’t actually know what lifestyle we went when we are younger, and a lot of times the lifestyle we want at 22 is different than what we want at 32.
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Old 01-30-2023, 08:09 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Keep in mind that the military is not a job that everybody would want. It can be a great job for some, or a bad job for others.

I don't understand why you have such a problem with my decision to live close to family so that my children can have their grandparents as part of their life. Why is that such a problem for you? What good is having a "better" job if it does not allow for the lifestyle that I want for myself or my family? What good does more money do when it can't buy you the lifestyle that one would want? In my case, graduating without debt allows me to live here.
It's not a problem for me. Never has been. It's a conversation.

We all make choices and live with the consequences of those choices. Some things, some teachers, are unfair. At some point though we learn those are insignificant speed bumps and don't let them dominate our choice of college or degree or career later on. We take lessons learned from them not to be like them, but we don't dwell on them as controlling factors in our lives. That's why I mentioned the academies and schools like them. Perspective. When you look at what it takes to get into and graduate from a place like that, it shows just how insignificant those professors you had are.
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Old 01-30-2023, 08:12 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
No one has a problem with it. The issue is that you seem to not understand that *general* discussions about the OP do not reflect the experience of a single individual. The OP here is whether college is intellectual or career preparation, and the point many make is that even if some are advertised as intellectual prep (namely the more prestigious schools), those also offer indirect career prep in the way in which they require students to challenge themselves. They may not be able to go home regularly, typically introduce students to people they didn’t know from their K-12 years, and require students to become more independent.

A lot of people don’t approach college as the end all and be all. The age at first marriage now is around 30, which gives people a lot of time to try living in different areas before settling down and starting a family. I work with quite a few people who went away from college/grad school before they decided to come back when they had kids. We don’t actually know what lifestyle we went when we are younger, and a lot of times the lifestyle we want at 22 is different than what we want at 32.
Great post.
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