Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-30-2023, 08:28 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
Reputation: 4357

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
No one has a problem with it. The issue is that you seem to not understand that *general* discussions about the OP do not reflect the experience of a single individual. The OP here is whether college is intellectual or career preparation, and the point many make is that even if some are advertised as intellectual prep (namely the more prestigious schools), those also offer indirect career prep in the way in which they require students to challenge themselves.
True, and the thread sort of drifted into differences between different levels of college.

Quote:
They may not be able to go home regularly,
Define "regularly". When I was in college, I'd go home for Columbus Day weekend (3 day weekend), Thanksgiving break (4 day weekend), the winter break (about 3-4 weeks, starting around Christmas), spring break (1 week in March), and for the summer (mid-May to Labor Day). Would you define that as "regularly"? What I wanted was somewhere that I could go home for the 3-4 day or longer weekends, but not a regular weekend.

Quote:
typically introduce students to people they didn’t know from their K-12 years, and require students to become more independent.
I would say just about any college can do that, regardless of academic quality.

Quote:
A lot of people don’t approach college as the end all and be all. The age at first marriage now is around 30, which gives people a lot of time to try living in different areas before settling down and starting a family. I work with quite a few people who went away from college/grad school before they decided to come back when they had kids. We don’t actually know what lifestyle we went when we are younger, and a lot of times the lifestyle we want at 22 is different than what we want at 32.
That is all true, and makes a lot of sense. But if your end goal is to live close to family, you need to choose a career that exists in that area, and that financially allows you to live there (combination of salary and avoidance of student loan debt), even if you don't plan to move near family immediately.

I also think that however you pay for college, you do have to think of the repercussions, and decide what you can accept or not accept. If you pay for college with student loans, it may limit your choices as to where to live, limit career choices, and limit who you can marry. If you pay for college with an academic scholarship (as I did), it may mean going to a college academically below your potential, it will mean needing to focus on grades rather than learning for the sake of learning, and it will cause professors and classmates to label you as a grade grubber. If you pay for college with an athletic scholarship, it will mean spending most of your time on a sport that you are not likely to have a professional career in, and may cause injury. If you pay for college either by attending a Military academy or an ROTC scholarshp or joining the National Guard, you have to be prepared to die for a cause you may not agree with, and be willing to be sent where the Military chooses, not where you want to be. If you pay for college by working multiple jobs, it may mean losing out on campus life, and not being able to put your all into your classes.

No choice is right or wrong. But we all have different choices available to us. And different people desire different lifestyles, and different people are willing to accept or not accept certain things. And you need to look at your whole life: what lifestyle do you want in college, what lifestyle do you want after college but before your parenting years, what lifestyle do you want in your parenting years, etc. But, again, the problem is that no 17 year old is mature enough to think about this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-30-2023, 08:31 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
It's not a problem for me. Never has been. It's a conversation.

We all make choices and live with the consequences of those choices. Some things, some teachers, are unfair. At some point though we learn those are insignificant speed bumps and don't let them dominate our choice of college or degree or career later on. We take lessons learned from them not to be like them, but we don't dwell on them as controlling factors in our lives. That's why I mentioned the academies and schools like them. Perspective. When you look at what it takes to get into and graduate from a place like that, it shows just how insignificant those professors you had are.
Ok, but keep in mind that if I had the easy AP Bio teacher, I would have gotten an academic scholarship at one of the specific schools that you mentioned earlier in this thread as meeting your standards. Honestly, I still don't think I would have gone to school there. And, honestly, I don't think my lifestyle would have been any different if I had gone to school there. But paying full price for that school would have been a terrible idea. I've also been told by multiple people that their civil engineering program isn't any good.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 08:34 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,823,938 times
Reputation: 116097
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Well if you know all that then why even bother interviewing/hiring non MIT graduates ?
Why are you asking me? Ask the OP.

Ditto, to this:
Quote:
How much "initiative" would one expect from a new hire just out of college ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 08:46 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,823,938 times
Reputation: 116097
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Yes, they get training and help and do overs and all that. Most make it through probationary period, though to be honest not all should. We had some where the supervisor wanted to let them go, but higher management wanted to give them a 2nd chance, and a 3rd, and a ..... (Side bar: That's actually been studied at the large scale level and found the probationary period isn't often used as it should be).



(Side note, I think saying "MIT" (or other terms like Ivies, or Harvard) makes people focus only on those few well known schools when the issue is much broader than that. ))

Thank Ruth, I think you very much get the point. On to your specific comments, I agree it is the bright, self motivated who attend these schools (again, not just limited to MIT). Yes, what I'm seeing is exactly what you're saying that the lower tier graduates can't rise to the level expected and need constant direction. And I do place a lot of that on how they are taught in school today. Do a step; wait for praise from the teacher before moving on. While I don't agree with Stealth Rabbit on some things, I do agree with his point on this, that our education system trains students to be passive and wait on direction.

I see graduates from R1, R2 and 3rd and 4th tier colleges. I know people don't like to hear this, but there is a difference between the graduates. I can see it in the resumes. I see it in the interviews. And in how they approach their jobs. We see it in summer interns. As an example, we had one from a lower tier school a few years ago who, after comparing himself to the other interns from other schools, said directly to me that it made him realize just how much his college had NOT prepared him compared to his peers.
OK, so in view of everything you and others in positions of responsibility at your outfit have observed over the years, the Q arises: why even bother interviewing from some of the schools that consistently fail to provide functional hires? Does your employer require large numbers of graduates, so that the better schools simply don't churn out enough candidates for your needs?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 08:50 AM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,193 posts, read 107,823,938 times
Reputation: 116097
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Where I disagree with you and the OP is that most students are forced to choose a college based on financial reasons. There may be too students who could get accepted at MIT but realize that given their life and career goals, it doesn’t make sense to go into debt. But that doesn’t mean they are lazy or unmotivated.

I’ll respond later to other points.
Right, and that could be one reason the OP's employer continues to interview candidates from lower-tier schools; in the hope of catching the occasional self-starter who can handle the work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 09:00 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
OK, so in view of everything you and others in positions of responsibility at your outfit have observed over the years, the Q arises: why even bother interviewing from some of the schools that consistently fail to provide functional hires? Does your employer require large numbers of graduates, so that the better schools simply don't churn out enough candidates for your needs?
I'm not the OP, but I'm going to take a stab at your question. OP: feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I believe the OP works in a rural area in the south. People who want to live near family are not likely to have their family in that area, so they likely won't be living there. And people who want to relocate to focus on career, rather than family, are more likely to end up in urban areas in the northeast or west coast. Maybe if they paid a premium, they could attract some of the people who put career above family. But, being a federal agency, they can only pay what the federal schedule says, regardless of what it takes to cause an employee to want to move away from family, and not move to an urban area in the northeast or west coast. Being a government job, the main perks are related to work-life balance. But the people looking for that work-life balance are not the same people who relocate based on career opportunities rather than family. Those who are married to their job tend to want to work in the private sector. So, I suspect that the OP's agency is somewhat limited in who they can attract, and may not be able to attract the best of the best, regardless of what college they attended.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 09:44 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
OK, so in view of everything you and others in positions of responsibility at your outfit have observed over the years, the Q arises: why even bother hiring from some of the schools that consistently fail to provide functional hires? Does your employer require large numbers of graduates, so that the better schools simply don't churn out enough candidates for your needs?
That's a great question actually. And the answer is in several parts, if you don't mind a bit of reading.

When we were first created (WW2), people were brought in from all over the country, and after the war, Germany as well. We had some great minds here. Some actually worked here long enough that I had the chance to work with them. Got a chance to see how truly creative minds thought when under extreme pressure.

Our workforce is somewhat divided into (generic terms that are commonly used) into the Principle Investigators who are the scientists/engineers who run the experimental work; the facility workforce who build, maintain, and operate the research facilities; and the support workforce (everything from HR to janitorial and such needed to support a large operation).

Within the PI workforce, historically that group were people who knew us professionally and were typically had some experience before coming here. That's the workforce I was hired into. With retirements we are now having to recruit into that workforce.

The facility and support workforces have, after the initial surge from around the country retired, tended to be from relatively local and regional colleges. Mainly because of Cold War secrecy -- if you didn't know about us, then you didn't know about us. Which meant students in many of the better colleges didn't even know to apply here. And as those folks from 3rd tier schools moved into management, they recruited back at the colleges they graduated from. The net result over time is a large percentage of this workforce came from 3rd tier regional colleges and universities. And the workforce as a whole began to display the characteristics I've mentioned earlier.

Now we are trying to expand our recruitment circle. I and a few other managers began hiring outside the local circle, looking for higher skills. One of the initiatives that has helped in a sideways way has been the push for diversity. That has forced HR to recruit nationwide and now I get resumes from graduates all over the country.

Which gets back to some of the things I've said. When you get those resumes from R1 and R2 graduates and not just 3rd tier schools, you really can see a basic talent difference. I think you posted earlier that the students who self-select into the R1/R2 schools are already separating themselves out. Heck we're already starting to see some of the R1/R2 graduates after only 3-4 years pulling ahead of others that have been here 20-30 years.

If we can keep them. The whole system is constipated up with mediocre performers who have another 20-25 years to go which prevents the talent from moving up. The talented folks see that and we're starting to lose them about the 4-5 year point.

Long complex answer to a seemingly simple question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Why are you asking me? Ask the OP.

Ditto, to this:
See post 61.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 10:14 AM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I'm not the OP, but I'm going to take a stab at your question. OP: feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I believe the OP works in a rural area in the south. People who want to live near family are not likely to have their family in that area, so they likely won't be living there. And people who want to relocate to focus on career, rather than family, are more likely to end up in urban areas in the northeast or west coast. Maybe if they paid a premium, they could attract some of the people who put career above family. But, being a federal agency, they can only pay what the federal schedule says, regardless of what it takes to cause an employee to want to move away from family, and not move to an urban area in the northeast or west coast. Being a government job, the main perks are related to work-life balance. But the people looking for that work-life balance are not the same people who relocate based on career opportunities rather than family. Those who are married to their job tend to want to work in the private sector. So, I suspect that the OP's agency is somewhat limited in who they can attract, and may not be able to attract the best of the best, regardless of what college they attended.
Pay limitations are a part of it. Though as mentioned above, people who want to work in this field, there are very few places to do it. Work-life balance is not a thing here as we run 24/7/365 pretty much. But a large part as I mentioned is college students don't know the jobs are here. Or that they even exist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-30-2023, 09:33 PM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,042,469 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Pay limitations are a part of it. Though as mentioned above, people who want to work in this field, there are very few places to do it. Work-life balance is not a thing here as we run 24/7/365 pretty much. But a large part as I mentioned is college students don't know the jobs are here. Or that they even exist.
Since you say your agency doesn’t allow a work-life balance, maybe that explains your unique observations, since such as agency might attract the same type of people who are willing to go into debt for a “better” college. Also, since you are from a low cost of living area, probably students get the financial aid that they deserve, so financial reasons are less of a factor in their college choice.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-31-2023, 08:04 AM
 
7,752 posts, read 3,791,421 times
Reputation: 14656
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
.

Society is changing whether we like it or not. Being "intellectual" is frowned upon.
I think the above statement has been true my entire life. I'd add the addendum that a certain type of intellectual is frowned upon by the other type of intellectual -- that, it seems to me, is new over the course of the past 30 years.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top