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The thing about high school and college I liked was that it was clear on what you needed to do to succeed.
Do your homework, organize your schedule, study for tests, get good grades. Maybe do an extracurricular or 2.
Some of you may comment that these are arbitrary benchmarks, the real world is different; you actually need to gain hard skills and provide other people value instead of just check benchmarks.
But at least in school, you know exactly what you need to do and you're guarenteed to get results if you do it
But to succeed in terms of career in the real world, it's less clear on what exactly you need to do to succeed. It seems like people just work hard, network and keep persisting until a door open somewhere.
Yeah basically. That's why real life if much harder than childhood. I like my job. I take ownership of and pour a bit of myself into all of my projects but some days I wish I just drove a dump truck for a living.
The thing about high school and college I liked was that it was clear on what you needed to do to succeed.
Do your homework, organize your schedule, study for tests, get good grades. Maybe do an extracurricular or 2.
Some of you may comment that these are arbitrary benchmarks, the real world is different; you actually need to gain hard skills and provide other people value instead of just check benchmarks.
But at least in school, you know exactly what you need to do and you're guarenteed to get results if you do it
But to succeed in terms of career in the real world, it's less clear on what exactly you need to do to succeed. It seems like people just work hard, network and keep persisting until a door open somewhere.
High school, uh, no. While the apparent goals were clear, the actual goals, both academic and socially were unknown and unstated. What we were supposed to be graded on vs what we were actually graded on were different. And then the unstated social rules of cliques, Prom Queen, Star Quarterback, etc destroyed everyone who wasn't in the inner circle. Being a good athlete, being good looking, well built; for the guys, cutting a good look in the football uniform; or for the girls, tanned legs under cheerleading miniskirts determined status.
College was more clear on what you had to do, but much harder to do it. High school was it's own special kind of hell.
I liked school well enough but I wouldn't want to repeat it. It provided structure and support that I was not really getting at home. But as an adult, I prefer to learn things at my own pace, or to take a specific class on a specific topic of interest that fits into my life neatly, as my time is valuable. There's a lot of wasted time and effort in general education, just because it has to be all things to all people. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing for all kids...if I'd been able to work at my own pace then go do my own thing at age 13 I would have spent the extra time getting into trouble. Some required busywork or silent reading time while waiting for everyone to be ready was definitely a healthier option than what I would have chosen for myself. I mean, I'm sure it'd be great for kids who had goals and would use that time to do extra work toward higher education prep or their careers or their passion projects or whatever, but I was not that kind of child, lol.
The thing I miss most about school was how much it was an individual meritocracy. I went to a traditional school and it's probably nowhere near what I enjoyed, at your average public school of today.
The thing about high school and college I liked was that it was clear on what you needed to do to succeed.
Do your homework, organize your schedule, study for tests, get good grades. Maybe do an extracurricular or 2.
Some of you may comment that these are arbitrary benchmarks, the real world is different; you actually need to gain hard skills and provide other people value instead of just check benchmarks.
But at least in school, you know exactly what you need to do and you're guarenteed to get results if you do it
But to succeed in terms of career in the real world, it's less clear on what exactly you need to do to succeed. It seems like people just work hard, network and keep persisting until a door open somewhere.
Yes, I definitely agree with you. In school, you know exactly how many points each assignment is worth, and, in most classes, how many points you need for you desired grade. But in the real world, you can do everything right, and still lose your job due to circumstances outside your control. And, you have no idea, for example, what the reward will be, if any, for giving up your weekend or vacation and working overtime. Nor do you know what the penalty will be, if anything, for refusing to give up your weekend or vacation and refusing to work overtime.
High school, uh, no. While the apparent goals were clear, the actual goals, both academic and socially were unknown and unstated. What we were supposed to be graded on vs what we were actually graded on were different. And then the unstated social rules of cliques, Prom Queen, Star Quarterback, etc destroyed everyone who wasn't in the inner circle. Being a good athlete, being good looking, well built; for the guys, cutting a good look in the football uniform; or for the girls, tanned legs under cheerleading miniskirts determined status.
College was more clear on what you had to do, but much harder to do it. High school was it's own special kind of hell.
I don’t agree. In high school, popularity had little to do with your grades. The most unfair grade I experienced as a C+ that should have been an A, but even that was still a passing grade. The real world is all about looks and personality, especially in roles where you meet with clients, which is most roles. It’s especially sad how men resort to surgery to be taller, and women resort to eating disorders to be thinner, just so they can be employable.
High school, uh, no. While the apparent goals were clear, the actual goals, both academic and socially were unknown and unstated. What we were supposed to be graded on vs what we were actually graded on were different. And then the unstated social rules of cliques, Prom Queen, Star Quarterback, etc destroyed everyone who wasn't in the inner circle. Being a good athlete, being good looking, well built; for the guys, cutting a good look in the football uniform; or for the girls, tanned legs under cheerleading miniskirts determined status.
College was more clear on what you had to do, but much harder to do it. High school was it's own special kind of hell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
I don’t agree. In high school, popularity had little to do with your grades. The most unfair grade I experienced as a C+ that should have been an A, but even that was still a passing grade. The real world is all about looks and personality, especially in roles where you meet with clients, which is most roles. It’s especially sad how men resort to surgery to be taller, and women resort to eating disorders to be thinner, just so they can be employable.
To expand upon my post: I would agree with TNFF that out of high school, college, and the working world, I would agree that college is the closest to a meritocracy. A major reason for that is because there is more of a separation between the social and academic aspects of college than there is in other stages of life. College professors don’t typically go to frat parties, for example.
I would say that the order from closest to a meritocracy to furthest would be college, high school, and then the working world is the furthest. The working world is all about looks and popularity, and, in particular, being tall for men, and being thin for women. In high school, it’s not likely that a teacher would ever fail a student who deserved the pass, no matter how unpopular he/she was, no matter how short he was if male, and no matter how fat he was if female.
I know TNFF and I often disagree about private vs public sector, where I’ve seen it being basically impossible to fire public sector employees. He argues that public sector employees can be fired but that due process must be used. Assuming what he says is accurate, he’s still insulated from the effects of looks, height, and weight, since due process would likely not allow somebody in the public sector to be fired for not being popular, not listening to the right music, not eating the right breakfast, being too short if male, or being too fat if female. But those are all reasons for which people are fired from the private sector all the time, especially roles involving meeting with clients, which is most roles.
I don’t agree. In high school, popularity had little to do with your grades. The most unfair grade I experienced as a C+ that should have been an A, but even that was still a passing grade. The real world is all about looks and personality, especially in roles where you meet with clients, which is most roles. It’s especially sad how men resort to surgery to be taller, and women resort to eating disorders to be thinner, just so they can be employable.
You need to go back and check what I wrote. I didn't say popularity had anything to do with grades; I said "the actual goals, both academic and socially were unknown and unstated." School is a time when kids are learning not just the academic side of things, but social interactions. My point was that neither of these were well defined what one had to do to be successful. Some folks were just natural at the social aspects and seemed to understand from birth all the "rules" and "goals" of social interaction. Others were lost and clueless as to what they should do or what they were doing wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
To expand upon my post: I would agree with TNFF that out of high school, college, and the working world, I would agree that college is the closest to a meritocracy. A major reason for that is because there is more of a separation between the social and academic aspects of college than there is in other stages of life. College professors don’t typically go to frat parties, for example.
I would say that the order from closest to a meritocracy to furthest would be college, high school, and then the working world is the furthest. The working world is all about looks and popularity, and, in particular, being tall for men, and being thin for women. In high school, it’s not likely that a teacher would ever fail a student who deserved the pass, no matter how unpopular he/she was, no matter how short he was if male, and no matter how fat he was if female.
I know TNFF and I often disagree about private vs public sector, where I’ve seen it being basically impossible to fire public sector employees. He argues that public sector employees can be fired but that due process must be used. Assuming what he says is accurate, he’s still insulated from the effects of looks, height, and weight, since due process would likely not allow somebody in the public sector to be fired for not being popular, not listening to the right music, not eating the right breakfast, being too short if male, or being too fat if female. But those are all reasons for which people are fired from the private sector all the time, especially roles involving meeting with clients, which is most roles.
I agree that college is closer to a meritocracy. Regarding the public vs private sector, while many of those things do play a role in promotions and in who gets the good assignments, it does seem a bit overstated to imply that getting fired for most of those things is commonplace.
You need to go back and check what I wrote. I didn't say popularity had anything to do with grades; I said "the actual goals, both academic and socially were unknown and unstated." School is a time when kids are learning not just the academic side of things, but social interactions. My point was that neither of these were well defined what one had to do to be successful. Some folks were just natural at the social aspects and seemed to understand from birth all the "rules" and "goals" of social interaction. Others were lost and clueless as to what they should do or what they were doing wrong.
That is true, but what does that have to do with school vs the working world? In school, social fit and conventional attractiveness are optional, but they are mandatory in most workplaces.
Quote:
I agree that college is closer to a meritocracy. Regarding the public vs private sector, while many of those things do play a role in promotions and in who gets the good assignments, it does seem a bit overstated to imply that getting fired for most of those things is commonplace.
There was a former poster who said that she was an engineer but she was fired in her mid-50s because she had aged and was no longer attractive enough for the role. And this was not in even in a place like NYC, LA, or Miami that is stereotyped as being imaged-based. Even if you don't think it's as common as I think it is, it still happens, whereas nobody has ever been expelled from high school for being too short, too fat, or too unattractive.
That is true, but what does that have to do with school vs the working world? In school, social fit and conventional attractiveness are optional, but they are mandatory in most workplaces.
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Didn't say it had anything to do with the work world. It was an answer to the question "Does anyone else miss the clarity of school?" Which is no, I didn't find it clear, esp the social aspects, and no, I don't miss it. School is something I'm glad to be out of and I find it amazing that there are many people who consider it their best years. College was different because it was easier to find social groups where you'd fit in. Don't fit in this group? There's another over there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
There was a former poster who said that she was an engineer but she was fired in her mid-50s because she had aged and was no longer attractive enough for the role. And this was not in even in a place like NYC, LA, or Miami that is stereotyped as being imaged-based. Even if you don't think it's as common as I think it is, it still happens, whereas nobody has ever been expelled from high school for being too short, too fat, or too unattractive.
I'm not so naive to think it doesn't happen. Of course, it does. But it isn't the over dominate driving force in most places. Age discrimination is far more prevalent than looks. Sure, there's a Pretty Privilege but if you look at what happens there, it's just a continuation of high school Home Coming Queen type social effect. Considering that the vast majority of us aren't pretty, aren't super tall, dark, and handsome, most of us carry some extra baggage, that if business fired people for that, they'd have no one working for them at all.
Sure, things happen, but don't extend some examples to be the whole set.
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