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Old 09-25-2023, 10:13 AM
 
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I have yet to see any evidence that paying existing teachers in existing schools managed by existing administrators more money results in those existing teachers performing better or better student outcomes.
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
I have yet to see any evidence that paying existing teachers in existing schools managed by existing administrators more money results in those existing teachers performing better or better student outcomes.
we could probably say the same for whatever your profession is as well...so let's freeze the pay in that profession.
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:38 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
we could probably say the same for whatever your profession is as well...so let's freeze the pay in that profession.
Private companies don't operate like government entities.
Everyone doesn't make the same salary. Everyone doesn't get a raise just because they've been there X years.
Extra goes to those that go above and beyond their normal like bonuses, stock options and promotions.
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Old 09-25-2023, 12:29 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,764 posts, read 58,190,820 times
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Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Private companies don't operate like government entities.
Everyone doesn't make the same salary. Everyone doesn't get a raise just because they've been there X years.
Extra goes to those that go above and beyond their normal like bonuses, stock options and promotions.
yes, very easy to distinquish those who are performing in a way to enhance the objectives of the organization (just as there is in teaching and administration )

But... in a private company... the success of the organization depends and expects each person on the payroll to do more than fill a chair. (i.e. show-up)


and the EDU system gets their (our) dough, regardless of outcome.

MORE money does not solve the problem, it perpetuates it.
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Old 09-25-2023, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,957 posts, read 24,450,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Private companies don't operate like government entities.
Everyone doesn't make the same salary. Everyone doesn't get a raise just because they've been there X years.
Extra goes to those that go above and beyond their normal like bonuses, stock options and promotions.
I've also worked under a program involving merit pay in education.

But private companies and schools are two different things. The purpose of schools is not to have owners and stock holders make huge profits. And children are not products. So, as the old phrase goes -- apples and oranges.
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Old 09-25-2023, 03:43 PM
 
7,942 posts, read 3,898,765 times
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Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Private companies don't operate like government entities.
In my experience, the above argument is rarely understood by educators on the public payroll. They hear the words, they shake their heads, and tell you you just don't understand. Just as we see in this thread. They wish ever higher compensation (who doesn't?) but unlike the private sector, public sector educators want compensation to be uncoupled from accountability.

It is a bit like talking to a not particularly bright 5 year old.
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Old 09-25-2023, 03:44 PM
 
12,880 posts, read 9,104,887 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I've also worked under a program involving merit pay in education.

But private companies and schools are two different things. The purpose of schools is not to have owners and stock holders make huge profits. And children are not products. So, as the old phrase goes -- apples and oranges.
Let's turn the question around the other way. How would paying existing teachers and existing administrators in the existing education system result in better outcomes?

I'll lay my cards on the table for what I'd support. Now talking about pay only since that was the question.

a. Market based pay for the particular field someone has a degree in. The intent here is to bring in a greater breadth of KSAs such as hard science or engineering degree to teach the hard sciences. Same for math, etc. The objection often brought up is this would disconnect individual salaries from each other. Yep, that's a big part of the intent; start changing the focus so expertise is rewarded.

b. Performance incentives. Pay boosts for better outcomes. Outcomes measured against knowledge standards.

c. Link administrator and central office pay to system outcomes. Because their decisions impact teacher and student performance in the classroom.

Ok, I'm open to discuss. What are your suggestions?
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Old 09-25-2023, 03:46 PM
 
7,942 posts, read 3,898,765 times
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Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
we could probably say the same for whatever your profession is as well...so let's freeze the pay in that profession.
The discussion is about teachers. Do try to stay on topic.
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Old 09-25-2023, 05:36 PM
 
4,389 posts, read 4,245,753 times
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Let's turn the question around the other way. How would paying existing teachers and existing administrators in the existing education system result in better outcomes?

I'll lay my cards on the table for what I'd support. Now talking about pay only since that was the question.

a. Market based pay for the particular field someone has a degree in. The intent here is to bring in a greater breadth of KSAs such as hard science or engineering degree to teach the hard sciences. Same for math, etc. The objection often brought up is this would disconnect individual salaries from each other. Yep, that's a big part of the intent; start changing the focus so expertise is rewarded.

b. Performance incentives. Pay boosts for better outcomes. Outcomes measured against knowledge standards.

c. Link administrator and central office pay to system outcomes. Because their decisions impact teacher and student performance in the classroom.

Ok, I'm open to discuss. What are your suggestions?
Every day millions of teachers leave school and head to their second jobs, often getting home quite late. If those teachers were paid the equivalent of both jobs, they would likely quit and spend more time on being a better teacher by tutoring after school, preparing lessons, contacting parents, taking classes, blah, blah,blah.

In addition, they would likely become more agreeable and more effective simply due to not being exhausted and overwhelmed all the time. Teachers who are the head of household would be able to care for their families and have enough left over to invest and provide their children the opportunity to participate in more activities.

That's a start.
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Old 09-25-2023, 05:39 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,262,224 times
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Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
I have yet to see any evidence that paying existing teachers in existing schools managed by existing administrators more money results in those existing teachers performing better or better student outcomes.
Not going to get better ones paying less, that's for sure. Pay more to make the profession competitive with other bachelor-level jobs and you might get better teachers. At this point, they only pay enough to attract the dregs.

This is a death spiral from what I can see. Schools of education are reporting significant declines in enrollment. Down 35% from 2010 to 2022.
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