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Old 09-25-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,065 posts, read 7,232,760 times
Reputation: 17146

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Private companies don't operate like government entities.
Everyone doesn't make the same salary. Everyone doesn't get a raise just because they've been there X years.
Extra goes to those that go above and beyond their normal like bonuses, stock options and promotions.
Teachers mostly do the same things, that's why they're paid similarly. Ie: if you teach 4th grade in one place it's pretty much the same anywhere, at least in terms of the actual teaching component. The class management will be different depending on the socio-economics of the community. When it comes to content, though, generally speaking teachers get marching orders and execute them.

Merit pay is something that's been tried in a variety of districts but doesn't work well, largely because we struggle to define "merit" and even struggle to define good teaching. It also creates perverse incentives from both teachers and students. I've seen this at the college level where some instructors resort to practical bribery of students in exchange for positive evals. If my pay is tied to how "happy" students are, I'm going to do whatever it takes to satisfy them. This issue is already enough of a problem in education.

A big problem is that so much of teacher performance is dependent on student performance. If you have unmotivated students with all kinds of home problems holding them back, no magic enthusiasm in the world is going to improve their test scores.

Last edited by redguard57; 09-25-2023 at 06:02 PM..
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Old 09-25-2023, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,065 posts, read 7,232,760 times
Reputation: 17146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Let's turn the question around the other way. How would paying existing teachers and existing administrators in the existing education system result in better outcomes?

I'll lay my cards on the table for what I'd support. Now talking about pay only since that was the question.

a. Market based pay for the particular field someone has a degree in. The intent here is to bring in a greater breadth of KSAs such as hard science or engineering degree to teach the hard sciences. Same for math, etc. The objection often brought up is this would disconnect individual salaries from each other. Yep, that's a big part of the intent; start changing the focus so expertise is rewarded.
We need good humanities instructors too. We already have enough coaches teaching history, etc... We need strong instructors all-around. I'm still reminded of this football player I tutored in college when I worked at the athletic tutoring center... the guy could barely read college level material. I got him through intro US history with a C-. Guess what? He teaches history at a high school in Texas now and has been for 10 years. Of course his main job is football coach.

Quote:
b. Performance incentives. Pay boosts for better outcomes. Outcomes measured against knowledge standards.
This was the basic idea behind NCLB and people lost their minds. In theory I like the idea, but in practice people hated it.

Quote:
c. Link administrator and central office pay to system outcomes. Because their decisions impact teacher and student performance in the classroom.
This kind of already happens. FWIW, administrators are somewhat more like the private sector. They can be hired/fired once their individual contracts are up and often a new superintendent will clean house, etc...

Quote:
Ok, I'm open to discuss. What are your suggestions?
TBH I think there are successful models around the world we could emulate. Canada would be a start; they are more efficient and get better outcomes than us.
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Old 09-25-2023, 05:56 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,126 posts, read 16,149,450 times
Reputation: 28335
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
In my experience, the above argument is rarely understood by educators on the public payroll. They hear the words, they shake their heads, and tell you you just don't understand. Just as we see in this thread. They wish ever higher compensation (who doesn't?) but unlike the private sector, public sector educators want compensation to be uncoupled from accountability.

It is a bit like talking to a not particularly bright 5 year old.
The big difference is private companies can control for the quality of the materials they use to produce their product. I don’t care how great a baker you are, if you are forced to use moldy blueberries, rancid butter, and overheated flour you are not going to produce an edible blueberry muffin. What is more, you are going to always look like a failure when compared to the bakery that always gets organic fresh picked blueberries, fresh churned butter, and recently milled soft pure wheat flour specifically designed for breads and muffins.

I don’t think the educators are the only ones who fail to understand the difference. I’ll not add in the insulting parting shot.
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When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.Moderator - Diabetes and Kentucky (including Lexington & Louisville)
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Old 09-25-2023, 06:23 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,338 posts, read 60,522,810 times
Reputation: 60924
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
The big difference is private companies can control for the quality of the materials they use to produce their product. I don’t care how great a baker you are, if you are forced to use moldy blueberries, rancid butter, and overheated flour you are not going to produce an edible blueberry muffin. What is more, you are going to always look like a failure when compared to the bakery that always gets organic fresh picked blueberries, fresh churned butter, and recently milled soft pure wheat flour specifically designed for breads and muffins.

I don’t think the educators are the only ones who fail to understand the difference. I’ll not add in the insulting parting shot.
Or as one of the many Superintendents (15+) mu system had in my career said, "The parents send us the best they have".
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Old 09-25-2023, 06:50 PM
 
12,836 posts, read 9,037,151 times
Reputation: 34894
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
We need good humanities instructors too. We already have enough coaches teaching history, etc... We need strong instructors all-around. I'm still reminded of this football player I tutored in college when I worked at the athletic tutoring center... the guy could barely read college level material. I got him through intro US history with a C-. Guess what? He teaches history at a high school in Texas now and has been for 10 years. Of course his main job is football coach.
So why was he even in college?
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
We need good humanities instructors too. We already have enough coaches teaching history, etc... We need strong instructors all-around. I'm still reminded of this football player I tutored in college when I worked at the athletic tutoring center... the guy could barely read college level material. I got him through intro US history with a C-. Guess what? He teaches history at a high school in Texas now and has been for 10 years. Of course his main job is football coach.

This was the basic idea behind NCLB and people lost their minds. In theory I like the idea, but in practice people hated it.

This kind of already happens. FWIW, administrators are somewhat more like the private sector. They can be hired/fired once their individual contracts are up and often a new superintendent will clean house, etc...

TBH I think there are successful models around the world we could emulate. Canada would be a start; they are more efficient and get better outcomes than us.
Ok, so what do you change to make it worthwhile to pay more?

Right now the argument seems to be

a. Pay more and outcomes will improve.
b. The students are the problem.
c. The parents are the problem.

Ok, if the students and the parents are the problem, how will paying more improve the outcomes?
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Old 09-25-2023, 06:58 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
In my experience, the above argument is rarely understood by educators on the public payroll. They hear the words, they shake their heads, and tell you you just don't understand. Just as we see in this thread. They wish ever higher compensation (who doesn't?) but unlike the private sector, public sector educators want compensation to be uncoupled from accountability.

It is a bit like talking to a not particularly bright 5 year old.
Actually, I'm all in favor of merit pay in public schools.
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Old 09-25-2023, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Let's turn the question around the other way. How would paying existing teachers and existing administrators in the existing education system result in better outcomes?

I'll lay my cards on the table for what I'd support. Now talking about pay only since that was the question.

a. Market based pay for the particular field someone has a degree in. The intent here is to bring in a greater breadth of KSAs such as hard science or engineering degree to teach the hard sciences. Same for math, etc. The objection often brought up is this would disconnect individual salaries from each other. Yep, that's a big part of the intent; start changing the focus so expertise is rewarded.

b. Performance incentives. Pay boosts for better outcomes. Outcomes measured against knowledge standards.

c. Link administrator and central office pay to system outcomes. Because their decisions impact teacher and student performance in the classroom.

Ok, I'm open to discuss. What are your suggestions?
I've already said twice that I'm in favor of merit pay.

Are you trying to argue.
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Old 09-25-2023, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
The discussion is about teachers. Do try to stay on topic.
My comment stands.
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Old 09-25-2023, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Not going to get better ones paying less, that's for sure. Pay more to make the profession competitive with other bachelor-level jobs and you might get better teachers. At this point, they only pay enough to attract the dregs.

This is a death spiral from what I can see. Schools of education are reporting significant declines in enrollment. Down 35% from 2010 to 2022.
There are people right on this forum who demand (in various terms) a "world class educational system" paid for at bargain basement funding.
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Old 09-25-2023, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Teachers mostly do the same things, that's why they're paid similarly. Ie: if you teach 4th grade in one place it's pretty much the same anywhere, at least in terms of the actual teaching component. The class management will be different depending on the socio-economics of the community. When it comes to content, though, generally speaking teachers get marching orders and execute them.

Merit pay is something that's been tried in a variety of districts but doesn't work well, largely because we struggle to define "merit" and even struggle to define good teaching. It also creates perverse incentives from both teachers and students. I've seen this at the college level where some instructors resort to practical bribery of students in exchange for positive evals. If my pay is tied to how "happy" students are, I'm going to do whatever it takes to satisfy them. This issue is already enough of a problem in education.

A big problem is that so much of teacher performance is dependent on student performance. If you have unmotivated students with all kinds of home problems holding them back, no magic enthusiasm in the world is going to improve their test scores.
Merit pay in education is not easy. That's for sure. Been there done that. But I am in favor of it. It didn't work in my district for a very simple reason -- no one likes being evaluated. No one. And teachers raised hell about it. But I still think it's a valid concept.
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