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Old 09-25-2023, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
So why was he even in college?

Ok, so what do you change to make it worthwhile to pay more?

Right now the argument seems to be

a. Pay more and outcomes will improve.
b. The students are the problem.
c. The parents are the problem.

Ok, if the students and the parents are the problem, how will paying more improve the outcomes?
I don't know about right now, but for decades Montgomery County, Maryland and Fairfax County, Virginia competed to get the best teacher candidates. Know how they did that? Pay and benefits. What is so difficult to understand about that?
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:41 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,804 posts, read 58,350,670 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
There are people right on this forum who demand (in various terms) a "world class educational system" paid for at bargain basement funding.
and fortunately there are countries DOING THIS. Today and for many years, and WORLD CLASS (which may not even exist in the USA 'publics'.)

No bargain basement teachers need apply.
No financial burden on residents / parents.

Results and processes are well documented and available for all to see, understand, learn, emulate (World-wide!!!, including to our enemies and competition)

We (USA) are not really so smart, and certainly not willing to learn!
First you have to realize, understand, and accept.... we are not so smart, or doing edu well.

it's truly sad for our youth and our nation.

We have (had) the potential.

Turning USA EDU on it's ear and dismantling it MIGHT be a good start.

Fixing it.... will never deliver. BTDT.
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Old 09-25-2023, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
and fortunately there are countries DOING THIS. Today and for many years, and WORLD CLASS (which may not even exist in the USA 'publics'.)

No bargain basement teachers need apply.
No financial burden on residents / parents.

Results and processes are well documented and available for all to see, understand, learn, emulate (World-wide!!!, including to our enemies and competition)

We (USA) are not really so smart, and certainly not willing to learn!
First you have to realize, understand, and accept.... we are not so smart, or doing edu well.

it's truly sad for our youth and our nation.

We have (had) the potential.

Turning USA EDU on it's ear and dismantling it MIGHT be a good start.

Fixing it.... will never deliver. BTDT.
That's really what some here want...private education only so that the education system is not the 'great leveller'.
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Old 09-26-2023, 05:42 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
37,818 posts, read 41,123,733 times
Reputation: 62280
First, hire Asian parents to teach. Their kids usually do well in school. Secondly, hire teachers from overseas countries who perform well (Top 5) on that International list ranked for reading and math. Third, make it harder for US college graduates to become teachers so we get better ones. Fourth, close bad schools. Fifth, get rid of bilingual education.
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:10 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
Reputation: 35066
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I've already said twice that I'm in favor of merit pay.

Are you trying to argue.
It's really a simple question. It has been stated that higher pay will solve the problem in education. I, like many others, simply asked how higher pay will solve the problem if we do nothing different from what we do today. If a bad hamburger costs $5 today how will paying $7 tomorrow, make that same hamburger better?*

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't know about right now, but for decades Montgomery County, Maryland and Fairfax County, Virginia competed to get the best teacher candidates. Know how they did that? Pay and benefits. What is so difficult to understand about that?
That's just rearranging deck chairs. Does nothing to bring up the overall quality of education in the US. Nothing to fix the fundamental issues.
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:29 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,135 posts, read 16,232,923 times
Reputation: 28389
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
First, hire Asian parents to teach. Their kids usually do well in school.
So do most teachers’ own children. Matter of fact, if I had to pick only one demographic who are universally the most likely to be successful at all aspects of public school, including everything from social skills to the percentage who go to college, I would choose the children of career teachers.

Now, if you want to propose that we take all children from their parents that are not Asian as soon as they are born and give them to Asian parents to raise, then you might have the solution you are looking for. I don’t think it will be well received.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
Secondly, hire teachers from overseas countries who perform well (Top 5) on that International list ranked for reading and math.
One, they are not teaching all the children in their country. The United States is the only country in the world that does true universal education. When we do testing, we compare all our children to a select group of theirs.

Two, these people are not used to teaching a diverse group of students. Not intellectually diverse, not economically diverse, not racially diverse, not religiously diverse, nor culturally diverse. These teachers will struggle beyond belief trying to teach the way they do in a class that has four or five students on IEP’s.

Three, American parents are not going to like the way these teachers operate. American parents do not think their children should ever fail. Period. Teachers from the countries you describe operate as we did back in the 1960s, that failure in school is the responsibility of the student. In America we believe failure is the responsibility of the teacher.

I have been in schools where we have hired people from other countries to teach here. Very, very few are successful. Most are absolutely shocked by the way parents speak to them, the way students speak to them, and the workload outside of actual teaching that is expected of American teachers. The foreign teachers from south of the border do tend to do fairly well, but that isn’t who you are looking to get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
Third, make it harder for US college graduates to become teachers so we get better ones.
We don’t even have enough teachers as it is. The number of college students who go into teacher education programs right now is dismal and far below the replacement level we currently need. Where do you think you’re going to get all these people who want to go into education? I am a lifelong teacher, and I discouraged all my children, along with my nieces and nephews, from going into education. I am not alone. Teaching is no longer seen as a desirable career. You will have to fix that before you can ever expect to get better quality teachers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
Fourth, close bad schools.
OK. I get the thought process behind that.

However, that’s what No Child Left Behind partially did. Know what happened? You just shifted your bad test scores from one school to a school that previously didn’t have students that got bad test scores. The end result was the new school’s scores went down. I lived through this. Basically all it did was spread the wealth of the poor testers around. The bottom line was the kids in the receiving school started getting a lesser education because so much of the teachers’ focus had to shift to their new struggling students.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
Fifth, get rid of bilingual education.
That is a debate that has been going on for decades. There are valid arguments on both sides. I do tend to agree with one year that focuses primarily on learning English which doesn’t count as a year in school and then the next year placing them into the grade they missed while in the program, with some limited ESL supports.


Education in America is not going to improve until we re-shift the primary responsibility for a student succeeding to the student and their parents. Teachers certainly have a responsibility, as do the schools themselves, to provide proper instruction, so I am not saying either should get a free pass. I just want the free pass we’ve given to students and parents over the last couple of decades to end. Additionally, education in America is not going to improve until we care as much about the educational rights of the average child as we do of select groups of students. American teachers right now are forced to teach to the bottom, that means not only is the top ignored, but so is the middle.
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:16 AM
 
8,099 posts, read 4,008,230 times
Reputation: 15172
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Not going to get better ones paying less, that's for sure.
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Pay more to make the profession competitive with other bachelor-level jobs and you might get better teachers. At this point, they only pay enough to attract the dregs.
Also very true. But what we do NOT want to do is pay high compensation to the installed base of "dregs" as you call them. How do we attract higher quality teachers without simultaneously offering outsized compensation to the incompetent?

Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg famously donated $100 Million to Newark Public Schools back in 2010. The bulk of the funds flowed to higher salaries and pensions of teachers and administrators. The result? Not much of anything. The donation only reinforced the bureaucratic and administrative ills that have long plagued public education.

Zuck's efforts were not the first. For example, back in the 1960s, the Ford Foundation led efforts to reform public schools in NYC with money, and included a provision to allow community boards input on local school teacher and principal decisions, but the teacher's union blocked the efforts as anyone with an IQ above room temperature could have foreseen, calling a city-wide strike to prevent reform, forcing Mayor John Lindsay to call the whole thing off.

Or take philanthropist Walter Annonberg's efforts back in 1993. He pledged $500 Million, which, because of matching grants, became $1.1 Billion in 1993 dollars for public schools. Longitudinal analysis showed conclusively a negligible impact on student achievement. The failure was because the money for the most part ended up in the hands of the same unions and administrators who created the problems in the first place.

Contrast that with the efforts of, say, John Walton and Ted Forstmann. They gave $50 Million each to fund scholarships for very low income students to get the heck out of failing public K-12 schools and attend private schools. Longitudinal analysis indicated a 90% graduation rate and matriculation to college rate, far exceeding the lousy public schools in their neighborhoods.

The massive public school/teachers union complex has successfully tested its power against multiple Congresses and Presidents. Reform never makes it through to fruition.

The data show simply raising compensation of teachers does not result in a statistically meaningful change in student outcomes.

Last edited by moguldreamer; 09-26-2023 at 10:05 AM..
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:48 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,804 posts, read 58,350,670 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That's really what some here want...private education only so that the education system is not the 'great leveller'.

"Private" has never been on my radar.

"Effective" is the essential education deliverable.

The successful foreign countries have minimal to non-existent "Private" educational options, They don't need it
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,538 posts, read 1,928,157 times
Reputation: 6432
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Then there is that 'eternal thought process barrier' within how USA EDU MUST be run. (Spend more money).

Fresh blood, fresh thoughts, radical change may be necessary.

i.e. How can you accomplish these objectives with 20% LESS money each yr?

During the interview process... Only Good Answers (which will succeed) are all that are required

It's easy.
The overwhelming expenditure in education budgets is salaries. Do you really think a 20% pay cut across the board is an easy answer?
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Old 09-26-2023, 09:59 AM
 
8,099 posts, read 4,008,230 times
Reputation: 15172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
The big difference is private companies can control for the quality of the materials they use to produce their product. I don’t care how great a baker you are, if you are forced to use moldy blueberries, rancid butter, and overheated flour you are not going to produce an edible blueberry muffin. What is more, you are going to always look like a failure when compared to the bakery that always gets organic fresh picked blueberries, fresh churned butter, and recently milled soft pure wheat flour specifically designed for breads and muffins.

I don’t think the educators are the only ones who fail to understand the difference. I’ll not add in the insulting parting shot.
I read your post and hear you saying "You don't understand."

Your analogy is rooted in a flawed understanding of the public sector economy.

The compiler used by one computer programmer is the same as the compiler used by another; one writes better code than the other. Two business development executives face the same challenges in the marketplace; one closes multi-million dollar deals while the other does not.

Teachers can be ranked and clustered among performance categories just as can product marketing engineers or registered nurses. It is a difficult task but is part of what we call "management."
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