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Old 09-26-2023, 10:00 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,538 posts, read 1,913,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
First, hire Asian parents to teach. Their kids usually do well in school. Secondly, hire teachers from overseas countries who perform well (Top 5) on that International list ranked for reading and math. Third, make it harder for US college graduates to become teachers so we get better ones. Fourth, close bad schools. Fifth, get rid of bilingual education.
This sort of thinking is simplistic, unworkable and, in some aspects, illegal.
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Old 09-26-2023, 10:04 AM
 
7,847 posts, read 3,836,363 times
Reputation: 14814
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
There are people right on this forum who demand (in various terms) a "world class educational system" paid for at bargain basement funding.
No one who evaluates the money spent on K-12 education in this country could rationally conclude we have bargain basement funding.
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Old 09-26-2023, 10:25 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,742 posts, read 58,090,525 times
Reputation: 46231
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
.., if I had to pick only one demographic who are universally the most likely to be successful at all aspects of public school, ..., I would choose the children of career teachers.
That's partly true, but I find far more thorough education expectations and support from my STEM coworkers moreso than my career teacher cohort. While the largest representaion in our Homeschool group were career teachers, those who delivered the goods and brought applicable learnings and keen interest came from our engineers, scientists, and CEO's (and farmers, of course - they're always creative, but also very busy)

Quote:
... The United States is the only country in the world that does true universal education. ...

kind of a small footprint... (total 4)
Countries without compulsory schooling: Vatican, Oman, Bhutan, Solomon Islands.
https://vividmaps.com/countries-with...ory-schooling/

A much larger contingent (190+)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education

of course YMMV (as we (USA) sadly know all too well)


Quote:
Two, these people are not used to teaching a diverse group of students. Not intellectually diverse, not economically diverse, not racially diverse, not religiously diverse, nor culturally diverse. ...
Surely you jest!
many of these countires are greater than 50% diversity, (with several nationalities and cultures in each classroom)
USA is 50% diverse with the vast majority of only (2) cultures, of which are well assimulated. (and accommodated)
Our Asians, Indian, Middle East students are quite capable, which is not at all the case in many foreign nations in their public schools. There are a lot of peasants, un-educated, special needs immigrants, which the USA generally does not allow.
...
Quote:
Teachers from the countries you describe operate as we did back in the 1960s,
Not my experience of being in international 'public' schools several times / yr in each of the past 40 yrs


Quote:
We don’t even have enough teachers as it is.
...Hurrah!!! we actually need FEWER ineffective teachers We're not raising up and educating 'relevant' teachers by following the same failed program they survived themselves.


Quote:
Education in America is not going to improve until we re-shift the primary responsibility for a student succeeding to the student and their parents. ...
OK, let's do it.

The professionally educated (?) should easily accomplish or at least suggest a solution for a known social deficit.


I think Laura's 'simple steps' might bring a faster and more effectve solution. (because, of course... the USA educational monstrously is not gonna budge, even though the data and evidence and viable solutions are available and right in their face.)


Too bad
So sad.
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Old 09-26-2023, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC View Post
First, hire Asian parents to teach. Their kids usually do well in school. Secondly, hire teachers from overseas countries who perform well (Top 5) on that International list ranked for reading and math. Third, make it harder for US college graduates to become teachers so we get better ones. Fourth, close bad schools. Fifth, get rid of bilingual education.
You need to rethink this.

We had a very multicultural school, in part because of our ESL program. Some cultures from Asia did produce really students (for the most part), while other cultures did not (for the most part). Grouping all Asians together like you did is not really very accurate...based on my experiences in 3 schools.

Hire teachers from overseas. Hmmm. We were a leading school in our state (one of the top 5 middle schools) and in my 20 years there we had one non-native born applicant, and she was Vietnamese. We hired her. It was a disaster.

I can agree with requiring a more challenging college curriculum for potential teachers. Although, as several posters have pointed out, the number of students going to college for teaching has plummeted. How do we fill the gap?

Close bad schools. I was in one bad school early in my career. Bad enough that the principal eventually ended up on "60 Minutes". So if we had just closed that school, what would we have done with the 1,300 students?
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Old 09-26-2023, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
So do most teachers’ own children. Matter of fact, if I had to pick only one demographic who are universally the most likely to be successful at all aspects of public school, including everything from social skills to the percentage who go to college, I would choose the children of career teachers.

Now, if you want to propose that we take all children from their parents that are not Asian as soon as they are born and give them to Asian parents to raise, then you might have the solution you are looking for. I don’t think it will be well received.
One, they are not teaching all the children in their country. The United States is the only country in the world that does true universal education. When we do testing, we compare all our children to a select group of theirs.

Two, these people are not used to teaching a diverse group of students. Not intellectually diverse, not economically diverse, not racially diverse, not religiously diverse, nor culturally diverse. These teachers will struggle beyond belief trying to teach the way they do in a class that has four or five students on IEP’s.

Three, American parents are not going to like the way these teachers operate. American parents do not think their children should ever fail. Period. Teachers from the countries you describe operate as we did back in the 1960s, that failure in school is the responsibility of the student. In America we believe failure is the responsibility of the teacher.

I have been in schools where we have hired people from other countries to teach here. Very, very few are successful. Most are absolutely shocked by the way parents speak to them, the way students speak to them, and the workload outside of actual teaching that is expected of American teachers. The foreign teachers from south of the border do tend to do fairly well, but that isn’t who you are looking to get.

We don’t even have enough teachers as it is. The number of college students who go into teacher education programs right now is dismal and far below the replacement level we currently need. Where do you think you’re going to get all these people who want to go into education? I am a lifelong teacher, and I discouraged all my children, along with my nieces and nephews, from going into education. I am not alone. Teaching is no longer seen as a desirable career. You will have to fix that before you can ever expect to get better quality teachers.

OK. I get the thought process behind that.

However, that’s what No Child Left Behind partially did. Know what happened? You just shifted your bad test scores from one school to a school that previously didn’t have students that got bad test scores. The end result was the new school’s scores went down. I lived through this. Basically all it did was spread the wealth of the poor testers around. The bottom line was the kids in the receiving school started getting a lesser education because so much of the teachers’ focus had to shift to their new struggling students.

That is a debate that has been going on for decades. There are valid arguments on both sides. I do tend to agree with one year that focuses primarily on learning English which doesn’t count as a year in school and then the next year placing them into the grade they missed while in the program, with some limited ESL supports.


Education in America is not going to improve until we re-shift the primary responsibility for a student succeeding to the student and their parents. Teachers certainly have a responsibility, as do the schools themselves, to provide proper instruction, so I am not saying either should get a free pass. I just want the free pass we’ve given to students and parents over the last couple of decades to end. Additionally, education in America is not going to improve until we care as much about the educational rights of the average child as we do of select groups of students. American teachers right now are forced to teach to the bottom, that means not only is the top ignored, but so is the middle.
We sometimes differ substantially, but that's an excellent post.

In terms of the bolded, that's why I am in favor of a reasonable degree of tracking.
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Old 09-26-2023, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
No one who evaluates the money spent on K-12 education in this country could rationally conclude we have bargain basement funding.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Ground beef today is FAR more expensive than steak used to be. It's still ground beef.

I've been in world class corporation's offices and been stunned by the affluence. I've never been stunned by the affluence of a public school. It costs a lot of money to educate 50 million kids.
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Old 09-26-2023, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,069 posts, read 7,245,793 times
Reputation: 17146
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
So why was he even in college?

Ok, so what do you change to make it worthwhile to pay more?

Right now the argument seems to be

a. Pay more and outcomes will improve.
b. The students are the problem.
c. The parents are the problem.

Ok, if the students and the parents are the problem, how will paying more improve the outcomes?
Because it would put the teaching profession more in line with the kinds of careers ambitious and competent people are pursuing. When teaching pays a wage that I can make without a degree and without the stresses it comes with, people are going to choose other paths. That's happening now - we see it in the decline in teacher prep program enrollment etc...

It would also increase the prestige level and that would also attract stronger applicants. Money and prestige are not 1:1 correlations, but they are related.

If I were 12-15 years younger, I probably wouldn't pursue education as a career. When I was young it actually paid somewhat reasonably given CoL. At given that it was the aftermath of 2008 I graduated into, the stability was a MAJOR perk. Now? Not so much.

Interestingly, when I was doing research for negotiations last year, what I discovered is that our best instructors tended to be hired in recessionary years after salaries had been increased. Weaker ones in boom years or inflationary times when salaries were stagnant. What was very interesting was that some of our worst instructors were hired in the early-mid 80s when there was a lot of inflation and the school was similarly not responding to it, continuing to pay 70s salaries into the 80s. They *finally* responded in the 90s and it brought in some strong faculty cohorts. The strongest instructor cohorts we hired came in the early-mid 90s and mid-late 00s.
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Old 09-26-2023, 02:16 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,142 posts, read 18,298,681 times
Reputation: 35019
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.

Ground beef today is FAR more expensive than steak used to be. It's still ground beef.

I've been in world class corporation's offices and been stunned by the affluence. I've never been stunned by the affluence of a public school. It costs a lot of money to educate 50 million kids.
And the US is the 2nd highest spender per pupil for K-12 eduction among 37 OECD countries.
More money won't fix the problem of lack of teachers.

We're #2 for spending and #31 for math/reading scores.


https://educationdata.org/public-edu...ing-statistics
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Old 09-26-2023, 02:28 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,435 posts, read 60,623,477 times
Reputation: 61048
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
And the US is the 2nd highest spender per pupil for K-12 eduction among 37 OECD countries.
More money won't fix the problem of lack of teachers.

We're #2 for spending and #31 for math/reading scores.


https://educationdata.org/public-edu...ing-statistics
You also have to look at what drives a lot of that spending that many other countries either don't do or do at much lower levels than we do (SPED for example).
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Old 09-26-2023, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
17,218 posts, read 57,099,641 times
Reputation: 18579
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
I read your post and hear you saying "You don't understand."

Your analogy is rooted in a flawed understanding of the public sector economy.

The compiler used by one computer programmer is the same as the compiler used by another; one writes better code than the other. Two business development executives face the same challenges in the marketplace; one closes multi-million dollar deals while the other does not.

Teachers can be ranked and clustered among performance categories just as can product marketing engineers or registered nurses. It is a difficult task but is part of what we call "management."
Can't rep you again so soon, but, I really think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with public schools in the US is bad management and/or no management. Of course, frequently the root cause is meddlesome Federal level regulations like "No Child Left Behind".

Then we have the concept of public school as the "great leveler" - is that really what we need here? If you are running a sports team, if you want to win, would you spend most of your time trying to improve your weakest players, or would you spend your time on the best players, and let the bench warmers fend for themselves? I mean, if you actually want to coach a winning team?

Part of why I would never touch a public teaching job, is that, (if I can believe what I have read here) I would be primarily evaluated on what I could do with the bottom 25%, academically. As a card carrying member of MENSA, I'm not adapted to teaching the slow witted. I would consider myself a fraud if I didn't cultivate and encourage the brighter students. But I'm not incapable of teaching more or less "ordinary" intellects, particularly if they will apply themselves:

Anecdote: I tutored Physics as an undergrad. Young lady in the nursing program was struggling with "sandbox" Physics. One of the professors brought her to me. I tutored her on campus and she started to improve, sharply really, and her *attitude* improved most of all, she quit thinking of Physics as a topic she was not good at, and started thinking of it as a topic that, with a little tutoring from me, she could handle. Her parents started bringing her to my parent's house on the weekends for more tutoring, driving down from the Tennessee border to the Atlanta suburbs. They paid me quite well. Towards the end of the semester the Department Head called me into his office. He showed me how he had graphed her grades over time, before I started tutoring her she was on a D/F trajectory. I tutored her up to a solid B, in about 2/3 of the semester. But the Department Head made it a point to show me the slope of the graph, and pointed out she would be up to an A level in a few more weeks. Who was it who said "We didn't lose the game, we just ran out of time."? As it was she was quite satisfied with a B in a course that was not really core to her chosen profession.
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