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Old 09-26-2023, 03:07 PM
 
12,897 posts, read 9,155,404 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Education in America is not going to improve until we re-shift the primary responsibility for a student succeeding to the student and their parents. Teachers certainly have a responsibility, as do the schools themselves, to provide proper instruction, so I am not saying either should get a free pass. I just want the free pass we’ve given to students and parents over the last couple of decades to end. Additionally, education in America is not going to improve until we care as much about the educational rights of the average child as we do of select groups of students. American teachers right now are forced to teach to the bottom, that means not only is the top ignored, but so is the middle.
I agree. In fact have often said that we spend too much time/effort/money on the bottom 10% when that same time & effort, with no more money, would accomplish so much more if allocated toward the top and middle. Those who refuse to perform should be left behind. No free pass. No social promotion. No "can't give less than 50." No diploma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Because it would put the teaching profession more in line with the kinds of careers ambitious and competent people are pursuing. When teaching pays a wage that I can make without a degree and without the stresses it comes with, people are going to choose other paths. That's happening now - we see it in the decline in teacher prep program enrollment etc...

It would also increase the prestige level and that would also attract stronger applicants. Money and prestige are not 1:1 correlations, but they are related.

If I were 12-15 years younger, I probably wouldn't pursue education as a career. When I was young it actually paid somewhat reasonably given CoL. At given that it was the aftermath of 2008 I graduated into, the stability was a MAJOR perk. Now? Not so much.

Interestingly, when I was doing research for negotiations last year, what I discovered is that our best instructors tended to be hired in recessionary years after salaries had been increased. Weaker ones in boom years or inflationary times when salaries were stagnant. What was very interesting was that some of our worst instructors were hired in the early-mid 80s when there was a lot of inflation and the school was similarly not responding to it, continuing to pay 70s salaries into the 80s. They *finally* responded in the 90s and it brought in some strong faculty cohorts. The strongest instructor cohorts we hired came in the early-mid 90s and mid-late 00s.
I would agree to pay the better teachers more. How do you separate the better teachers from the "dregs" as mentioned earlier?
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:13 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,801 posts, read 58,331,069 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
The overwhelming expenditure in education budgets is salaries. Do you really think a 20% pay cut across the board is an easy answer?
Delete 30% of the fluff! (that would not be the effective teachers), but some very substantial salaries
Then check the math on the salaries. Should be plenty left over for perpetual wage increases for those contributing to education.

This is NOT a diffficult problem. (except for the USA educational system being in the way).

They are 'educated', so capable of coming up with the solutions that they missed during Covid.

Again... I'd just ask the students to fix it. They're the ones who will benefit, and could fix it REAL well!

Job sharing + experience... "Hey Jr... you're principal for the day" or at least supporting admin and financial or infrastructure duties. The (students) mess up managing this thing... they suffer, and their parents pay..

If the students fix it... Count on more 'virtual teachers'
They may insist on WFH 32 hrs / week
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:16 PM
 
3,242 posts, read 3,557,216 times
Reputation: 3596
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
Because it would put the teaching profession more in line with the kinds of careers ambitious and competent people are pursuing. When teaching pays a wage that I can make without a degree and without the stresses it comes with, people are going to choose other paths. That's happening now - we see it in the decline in teacher prep program enrollment etc...

It would also increase the prestige level and that would also attract stronger applicants. Money and prestige are not 1:1 correlations, but they are related.

If I were 12-15 years younger, I probably wouldn't pursue education as a career. When I was young it actually paid somewhat reasonably given CoL. At given that it was the aftermath of 2008 I graduated into, the stability was a MAJOR perk. Now? Not so much.

Interestingly, when I was doing research for negotiations last year, what I discovered is that our best instructors tended to be hired in recessionary years after salaries had been increased. Weaker ones in boom years or inflationary times when salaries were stagnant. What was very interesting was that some of our worst instructors were hired in the early-mid 80s when there was a lot of inflation and the school was similarly not responding to it, continuing to pay 70s salaries into the 80s. They *finally* responded in the 90s and it brought in some strong faculty cohorts. The strongest instructor cohorts we hired came in the early-mid 90s and mid-late 00s.
You bring up a point I was going to make. The US economy has been in an expansion mode since 2009, there has not been a real reset (Covid shutdown was a soft landing with supplementary money flowing around) since then. As a result, the young entering/graduating college over the last 15 years have had tons of opportunity to make much more money than they would in education, so that hasn't been a focus unless the person had a passion for it. When the next recession hits, you will see more people flow back into the teaching ranks as opposed to being out of work in the private sector for multiple years.
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:16 PM
 
4,391 posts, read 4,254,110 times
Reputation: 5888
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
I read your post and hear you saying "You don't understand."

Your analogy is rooted in a flawed understanding of the public sector economy.

The compiler used by one computer programmer is the same as the compiler used by another; one writes better code than the other. Two business development executives face the same challenges in the marketplace; one closes multi-million dollar deals while the other does not.

Teachers can be ranked and clustered among performance categories just as can product marketing engineers or registered nurses. It is a difficult task but is part of what we call "management."

How would you deal with the steady delivery of only moldy blueberries? The metaphor refers to the duty of the public schools to teach ALL children, even the ones who will ultimately be unable to do much to support themselves due to inherent disadvantages. They are the moldy blueberries that the schools are accountable for making into acceptable graduates.

I want to know how businesses compensate when the only supplies they have for the job they have undertaken are insufficient to get the job accomplished up to standard.
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:22 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,801 posts, read 58,331,069 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Can't rep you again so soon, but, I really think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with public schools in the US is bad management and/or no management. Of course, frequently the root cause is meddlesome Federal level regulations like "No Child Left Behind".

Then we have the concept of public school as the "great leveler" - is that really what we need here?
....
thus... you (if a manager within EDU) raise the flag and fix it, not just continue to lay under the bus. and cry "The Sky is falling".

So amazing to see that effective international schools from developed countries do SPED very well. There are places for them in a responsible society. (And there used to be many more places for them in the USA).
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,074 posts, read 24,578,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
And the US is the 2nd highest spender per pupil for K-12 eduction among 37 OECD countries.
More money won't fix the problem of lack of teachers.

We're #2 for spending and #31 for math/reading scores.


https://educationdata.org/public-edu...ing-statistics
And what is our cost of living compared to the cost of living of those other 37 OECD countries?
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Old 09-26-2023, 03:31 PM
 
4,391 posts, read 4,254,110 times
Reputation: 5888
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Can't rep you again so soon, but, I really think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with public schools in the US is bad management and/or no management. Of course, frequently the root cause is meddlesome Federal level regulations like "No Child Left Behind".

Then we have the concept of public school as the "great leveler" - is that really what we need here? If you are running a sports team, if you want to win, would you spend most of your time trying to improve your weakest players, or would you spend your time on the best players, and let the bench warmers fend for themselves? I mean, if you actually want to coach a winning team?

Part of why I would never touch a public teaching job, is that, (if I can believe what I have read here) I would be primarily evaluated on what I could do with the bottom 25%, academically. As a card carrying member of MENSA, I'm not adapted to teaching the slow witted. I would consider myself a fraud if I didn't cultivate and encourage the brighter students. But I'm not incapable of teaching more or less "ordinary" intellects, particularly if they will apply themselves:

Anecdote: I tutored Physics as an undergrad. Young lady in the nursing program was struggling with "sandbox" Physics. One of the professors brought her to me. I tutored her on campus and she started to improve, sharply really, and her *attitude* improved most of all, she quit thinking of Physics as a topic she was not good at, and started thinking of it as a topic that, with a little tutoring from me, she could handle. Her parents started bringing her to my parent's house on the weekends for more tutoring, driving down from the Tennessee border to the Atlanta suburbs. They paid me quite well. Towards the end of the semester the Department Head called me into his office. He showed me how he had graphed her grades over time, before I started tutoring her she was on a D/F trajectory. I tutored her up to a solid B, in about 2/3 of the semester. But the Department Head made it a point to show me the slope of the graph, and pointed out she would be up to an A level in a few more weeks. Who was it who said "We didn't lose the game, we just ran out of time."? As it was she was quite satisfied with a B in a course that was not really core to her chosen profession.
One of the issues that I had with school management over the years is that so many administrators are former coaches. They could never really understand why it was so difficult to motivate students to learn subjects in which they had no interest or need to know. Some people have no desire to play football, so they don't try out. Everyone on the football team is there because they tried out and the coach selected them. It was not mandatory that they try out. Now if you told all the football players they had to take ballet, you might have a problem. Not everyone knows about Rosey Grier.

At least with coaches, the possibility of unemployment is a motivator. Some kids have no desire to do school. And yet the school is responsible for their performance, and teachers can lose their jobs if they aren't given strong students. How many coaches are willing to coach teams with no choice as to who is on the roster, while being held accountable for the performance of the weakest players on the team?

The current state of affairs in American education is a major reason why there is such a dire shortage of people willing to teach given the ongoing climate of acrimony and unreasonable accountability under the present pay structure.
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Old 09-26-2023, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,076 posts, read 7,283,131 times
Reputation: 17151
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I agree. In fact have often said that we spend too much time/effort/money on the bottom 10% when that same time & effort, with no more money, would accomplish so much more if allocated toward the top and middle. Those who refuse to perform should be left behind. No free pass. No social promotion. No "can't give less than 50." No diploma.


I would agree to pay the better teachers more. How do you separate the better teachers from the "dregs" as mentioned earlier?
IMO... create a class of administrator whose only job is teacher evaluation. But that would cost money. From the teacher perspective, take away some of their power.
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:18 PM
 
12,897 posts, read 9,155,404 times
Reputation: 35056
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
How would you deal with the steady delivery of only moldy blueberries? The metaphor refers to the duty of the public schools to teach ALL children, even the ones who will ultimately be unable to do much to support themselves due to inherent disadvantages. They are the moldy blueberries that the schools are accountable for making into acceptable graduates.

I want to know how businesses compensate when the only supplies they have for the job they have undertaken are insufficient to get the job accomplished up to standard.
Sort and separate. Some blueberries go to market as fresh berries; some go into juice; some go into jam; some go into cattle feed. Not every kid who goes into school is the same and they aren't going to come out the same.

Everyone seems to know that except the education system where instead more and more effort goes into trying to save the moldy blueberries while they contaminate the rest of the batch. In the end "leveling" the batch to the lowest common denominator. And now you're justified in bringing up the grades on the lower end to "average" since the "leveling" has brought the average down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
IMO... create a class of administrator whose only job is teacher evaluation. But that would cost money. From the teacher perspective, take away some of their power.
Ok, but why create a new class of administrator to evaluate teachers since there already exists a class of administrators to do that? That adds overhead cost without improving production. Why not instead if the existing administrators who are tasked with evaluation are unable to do that job, replace them with people who can.
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,074 posts, read 24,578,993 times
Reputation: 33105
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
IMO... create a class of administrator whose only job is teacher evaluation. But that would cost money. From the teacher perspective, take away some of their power.
But do keep in mind that in right-to-work states, unions have little power.
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