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Old 09-26-2023, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...

Everyone seems to know that except the education system where instead more and more effort goes into trying to save the moldy blueberries while they contaminate the rest of the batch. ...
Because some of us see human beings instead of blueberries.
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Old 09-26-2023, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...
Ok, but why create a new class of administrator to evaluate teachers since there already exists a class of administrators to do that? That adds overhead cost without improving production. Why not instead if the existing administrators who are tasked with evaluation are unable to do that job, replace them with people who can.
And we did just that with one assistant principal.
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Old 09-27-2023, 08:04 AM
 
12,892 posts, read 9,142,097 times
Reputation: 35043
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Because some of us see human beings instead of blueberries.
I'm not the one who came up with the blueberry analogy. But it still holds. Just like blueberries, not every human is the same. Not everyone has the same abilities, drive, motivation, etc. Yet that's exactly what today's education system tries to do is create the same result.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And we did just that with one assistant principal.
Good. Recall I was responding to a post that suggested adding another layer of administration.
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Old 09-27-2023, 08:16 AM
 
8,054 posts, read 3,967,817 times
Reputation: 15094
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
First, I doubt very much you are sorry.

Second, I am not wrong. Respectfully, you are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Ground beef today is FAR more expensive than steak used to be. It's still ground beef.
Irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I've been in world class corporation's offices and been stunned by the affluence.
Again, irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It costs a lot of money to educate 50 million kids.
Spoken like someone who has never generated revenue or struggled to make payroll.

Let me gently remind you that you are the person who incorrectly asserted we have "bargain basement funding."

Last edited by moguldreamer; 09-27-2023 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 09-27-2023, 08:42 AM
 
8,054 posts, read 3,967,817 times
Reputation: 15094
Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Mitch View Post
Can't rep you again so soon, but, I really think you hit the nail on the head. The problem with public schools in the US is bad management and/or no management. Of course, frequently the root cause is meddlesome Federal level regulations like "No Child Left Behind".

Then we have the concept of public school as the "great leveler" - is that really what we need here? If you are running a sports team, if you want to win, would you spend most of your time trying to improve your weakest players, or would you spend your time on the best players, and let the bench warmers fend for themselves? I mean, if you actually want to coach a winning team?

Part of why I would never touch a public teaching job, is that, (if I can believe what I have read here) I would be primarily evaluated on what I could do with the bottom 25%, academically. As a card carrying member of MENSA, I'm not adapted to teaching the slow witted. I would consider myself a fraud if I didn't cultivate and encourage the brighter students. But I'm not incapable of teaching more or less "ordinary" intellects, particularly if they will apply themselves:

Anecdote: I tutored Physics as an undergrad. Young lady in the nursing program was struggling with "sandbox" Physics. One of the professors brought her to me. I tutored her on campus and she started to improve, sharply really, and her *attitude* improved most of all, she quit thinking of Physics as a topic she was not good at, and started thinking of it as a topic that, with a little tutoring from me, she could handle. Her parents started bringing her to my parent's house on the weekends for more tutoring, driving down from the Tennessee border to the Atlanta suburbs. They paid me quite well. Towards the end of the semester the Department Head called me into his office. He showed me how he had graphed her grades over time, before I started tutoring her she was on a D/F trajectory. I tutored her up to a solid B, in about 2/3 of the semester. But the Department Head made it a point to show me the slope of the graph, and pointed out she would be up to an A level in a few more weeks. Who was it who said "We didn't lose the game, we just ran out of time."? As it was she was quite satisfied with a B in a course that was not really core to her chosen profession.
As usual, you make excellent points.

In the history of mankind, true advances and breakthroughs have been the result of the work of a tiny fraction of the population - extraordinarily gifted people. This is true across disciplines - the arts, the hard sciences, biology, medicine, economics, mathematics, material science, all the various engineering disciplines, literature, construction, organizational development, warfare, education, politics, law, technology, manufacturing, etc etc etc.

Yes, a tiny sliver of mankind is responsible for advances and breakthroughs. Identifying and nurturing such extraordinary people at an early age is one of the best bets we can make to drive GDP upward in the future in the global war for economic dominance.

It is critical that our educational systems be reformed to focus on this. It is also unlikely ever to happen, given the entrenched special interests of the administrative/bureaucratic entrenched employees and retirees who depend upon the status quo for their paychecks. We see even in this thread those who purport to have been career educators/administrators look at the private sector not with admiration for contributions to the economy and society but with envy and not-particularly-hidden desires for wealth redistribution to the educator class.

But hope springs eternal, as the saying goes. I am hopeful that some young people will go on to do great things despite their K-12 public education.
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Old 09-27-2023, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I'm not the one who came up with the blueberry analogy. But it still holds. Just like blueberries, not every human is the same. Not everyone has the same abilities, drive, motivation, etc. Yet that's exactly what today's education system tries to do is create the same result.




Good. Recall I was responding to a post that suggested adding another layer of administration.
The bolded -- your first sentence is correct. The second I don't think is correct. We don't expect the same from a GT student and SPED student. We attempt to give all kids options. The way I see it is similar to the old slogan for the Army: "Be all that you can be"...but it's on an individual basis. And we don't always see the end result.

I think for example of a kid I had way back when I was student teaching. Weird to the max. Not bad...not a behavior problem...but really weird. Eventually started more than one company of his own and served for twelve years in the Florida legislature. And then there was another student that we had...much later...gifted student...we all knew how successful he'd be. And he has reached the pinnacle -- serving time for murder in Virginia's highest security level prison.

And then there was this kid who had been an A student in elementary school, but things went downhill in his family life and he barely graduated from high school...by the skin of his teeth. His teachers didn't have any positive expectations for him. Five college degrees later, and after becoming recognized as an excellent science teacher and an award winning principal, he looked back at the three 'Golden Children' from his elementary and high school years...those children who everyone knew would be the most successful in their adult lives. And one of the three (Diane) was, starting her own successful business. Kathy was successful, too; earned lots of money...as a prostitute. Who would have guess Louis would have becomed a used car salesman in a town of 3,000.

And so our goal should be to help each student become all that they can become, realizing that there is no set level of achievement for everyone in life, and that some kids will disappoint us when we have them in our schools, only to be successful later in life; while others will be wonderfully successful in school and become failures in life (or at least disappointments). Because they're all human beings, not blueberries.
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Old 09-27-2023, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
First, I doubt very much you are sorry.

Second, I am not wrong. Respectfully, you are.



Irrelevant.



Again, irrelevant.



Spoken like someone who has never generated revenue or struggled to make payroll.

Let me gently remind you that you are the person who incorrectly asserted we have "bargain basement funding."
Just because you don't agree with a poster, doesn't mean you're right.

The second school I taught in was an old dilapidated building where science teachers were told that they should personally buy the materials and personally repair venetian blinds that were decades old. Is that what you mean by world class funding. They were told that they should buy the tools, pipes, and other materials required to fix the plumbing in their science labs. Is that world class funding?

Crumbling asbestos floor tiles in a 40 year old building that had never been significantly upgraded. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education?

Putting in a computer lab...with no one to run it or manage the software and hardware. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education?

A school system that struggled to make payroll due to severe and repeated budget cuts...nearly doubled teacher load from 5 classes a day to 6 classes a day, and roughly 125 students per teacher to 240 students per teacher. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education? And then giving teachers 1 package of Xerox paper per quarter, which is not even enough to run off a unit test for all 240 students. The inability to buy materials to conduct standard science experiments.

I could go on and on.

Some of you are dissatisfied with what you are getting out of our school systems. Well, they're YOUR kids who YOU raised, and their behavior is on YOU. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs -- incompetent parents and a general public made up of amateurs that likes to complain but doesn't seem to understand that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
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Old 09-27-2023, 10:28 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,575 posts, read 60,878,723 times
Reputation: 61257
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Just because you don't agree with a poster, doesn't mean you're right.

The second school I taught in was an old dilapidated building where science teachers were told that they should personally buy the materials and personally repair venetian blinds that were decades old. Is that what you mean by world class funding. They were told that they should buy the tools, pipes, and other materials required to fix the plumbing in their science labs. Is that world class funding?

Crumbling asbestos floor tiles in a 40 year old building that had never been significantly upgraded. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education?

Putting in a computer lab...with no one to run it or manage the software and hardware. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education?

A school system that struggled to make payroll due to severe and repeated budget cuts...nearly doubled teacher load from 5 classes a day to 6 classes a day, and roughly 125 students per teacher to 240 students per teacher. Is that an example of America's world class funding of education? And then giving teachers 1 package of Xerox paper per quarter, which is not even enough to run off a unit test for all 240 students. The inability to buy materials to conduct standard science experiments.

I could go on and on.

Some of you are dissatisfied with what you are getting out of our school systems. Well, they're YOUR kids who YOU raised, and their behavior is on YOU. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs -- incompetent parents and a general public made up of amateurs that likes to complain but doesn't seem to understand that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
My very first and my very last paychecks from that school system bounced.
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Old 09-27-2023, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
My very first and my very last paychecks from that school system bounced.
But hey...some of our posters are claiming we have world class funding!
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Old 09-27-2023, 10:46 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,575 posts, read 60,878,723 times
Reputation: 61257
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
But hey...some of our posters are claiming we have world class funding!
The first one was drawn on the wrong account, if I remember the blue one instead of the brown one that was to be used for that pay period. The last one was because the person who was supposed to authorize the disbursements forgot to do it before going on vacation. The next week the same thing happened with health insurance for retirees.

I had probably one or two paychecks bounce every year in my thirty plus years there.
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