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Old 09-27-2023, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990

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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
and misbehaved society, politicians, government, (and) profs and teachers and self

The GLARING issues are very different for an 'outside' / business perspective (I still work with and volunteer each week in PS).

and.... it's very obvious (and substantiated here)
And very simple to FIX.

But... it will HURT and require someone take responsibility and control. (= the end of endless excuses)
No, it isn't simple. But that attitude is.

And I'll tell you the most basic reason it's not simple: to start -- just to start -- you'd need to get everyone in the country to agree on the basics. And that ain't gonna happen. It's just all the other problems we can't solve in this country -- right now the divide is too great. And so the issues simmer.
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Old 09-27-2023, 03:24 PM
 
12,858 posts, read 9,076,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The bolded -- your first sentence is correct. The second I don't think is correct. We don't expect the same from a GT student and SPED student. We attempt to give all kids options. The way I see it is similar to the old slogan for the Army: "Be all that you can be"...but it's on an individual basis. And we don't always see the end result.

I think for example of a kid I had way back when I was student teaching. Weird to the max. Not bad...not a behavior problem...but really weird. Eventually started more than one company of his own and served for twelve years in the Florida legislature. And then there was another student that we had...much later...gifted student...we all knew how successful he'd be. And he has reached the pinnacle -- serving time for murder in Virginia's highest security level prison.

And then there was this kid who had been an A student in elementary school, but things went downhill in his family life and he barely graduated from high school...by the skin of his teeth. His teachers didn't have any positive expectations for him. Five college degrees later, and after becoming recognized as an excellent science teacher and an award winning principal, he looked back at the three 'Golden Children' from his elementary and high school years...those children who everyone knew would be the most successful in their adult lives. And one of the three (Diane) was, starting her own successful business. Kathy was successful, too; earned lots of money...as a prostitute. Who would have guess Louis would have becomed a used car salesman in a town of 3,000.

And so our goal should be to help each student become all that they can become, realizing that there is no set level of achievement for everyone in life, and that some kids will disappoint us when we have them in our schools, only to be successful later in life; while others will be wonderfully successful in school and become failures in life (or at least disappointments). Because they're all human beings, not blueberries.
I would agree we used to give all kids options. And perhaps you school still does. But most of those options are much more limited today. It's not about expecting the same from the gifted student and the SPED student. It's about class time being spent trying to get the bottom 20% up to a C and assuming the gifted kids will get it on their own.

Funny how you cherry picked examples from the extreme ends. Naturally you cherry picked the good student who failed and the poor student who became rich, that seems to be a rather common trend, but cherry picked examples are not the overall norm.

I agree. We want a system that enables kids to "be all they can be." We don't have that now.
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Old 09-27-2023, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I would agree we used to give all kids options. And perhaps you school still does. But most of those options are much more limited today. It's not about expecting the same from the gifted student and the SPED student. It's about class time being spent trying to get the bottom 20% up to a C and assuming the gifted kids will get it on their own.

Funny how you cherry picked examples from the extreme ends. Naturally you cherry picked the good student who failed and the poor student who became rich, that seems to be a rather common trend, but cherry picked examples are not the overall norm.

I agree. We want a system that enables kids to "be all they can be." We don't have that now.
I don't see anything wrong with trying to get the bottom 20% up to a C.
And I don't think there's any assumption that the gifted kids will get it on their own.

Well, cherry picking is pretty common on all sides of the education debate.
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Old 09-27-2023, 05:51 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,450 posts, read 60,653,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't see anything wrong with trying to get the bottom 20% up to a C.
And I don't think there's any assumption that the gifted kids will get it on their own.

Well, cherry picking is pretty common on all sides of the education debate.

Actually there is in the non-leveled classes.

I had a High School Assessment class one year in Local, State and National Government.

It was made of kids who had never had the class or taken the HSA, kids who had passed the class and failed the test and kids who had failed the class but passed the test.

Guess what a cluster **** that was. And to make it worse, I didn't start the year with them. The original teacher was a shambolic disaster so at the end of the 1st Quarter the classes were all switched around.

That was the year I went from being referred to as a Master Teacher to one who was slated for intensive supervision.

Oh, did I mention the class average reading level in that class was 5th Grade (LSN was a 10th Grade class)?
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Old 09-27-2023, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,881 posts, read 24,384,032 times
Reputation: 32990
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Actually there is in the non-leveled classes.

I had a High School Assessment class one year in Local, State and National Government.

It was made of kids who had never had the class or taken the HSA, kids who had passed the class and failed the test and kids who had failed the class but passed the test.

Guess what a cluster **** that was. And to make it worse, I didn't start the year with them. The original teacher was a shambolic disaster so at the end of the 1st Quarter the classes were all switched around.

That was the year I went from being referred to as a Master Teacher to one who was slated for intensive supervision.

Oh, did I mention the class average reading level in that class was 5th Grade (LSN was a 10th Grade class)?
I accept your experience.

But as with all experiences in the field of education...well, let's just say there's too much stereotyping.
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Old 09-27-2023, 09:44 PM
 
12,858 posts, read 9,076,133 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't see anything wrong with trying to get the bottom 20% up to a C.
.
Where do you get the extra class time from? Who gets shortchanged so the teacher can spend more time on that subset? How much is bringing them up vs devaluing a C to bring the requirements down?


Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And I don't think there's any assumption that the gifted kids will get it on their own.
.
That has been explicitly stated often over the years in the education forum.
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Old 09-28-2023, 09:30 AM
 
7,859 posts, read 3,850,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Just because you don't agree with a poster, doesn't mean you're right.
LOL. The irony is thick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Some of you are dissatisfied with what you are getting out of our school systems. Well, they're YOUR kids who YOU raised, and their behavior is on YOU. Let's start putting the blame where it belongs -- incompetent parents and a general public made up of amateurs that likes to complain but doesn't seem to understand that YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
It seems you believe teachers and administrators should not be held accountable for their poor performance You're not alone; many people whose paychecks are funded by the taxpaying public have such an entitlement mindset.
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Old 09-28-2023, 09:34 AM
 
7,859 posts, read 3,850,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Which is also true for pretty much any corporation in America.
Once again, we are discussing public education. Your one-liners about corporations might generate an interesting discussion if you post them in the Economics forum. You might even learn a thing or two.
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Old 09-28-2023, 09:36 AM
 
7,859 posts, read 3,850,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
The root of all our real school problems is with the parents and taxpayers. All.
Is this in Lake Wobegon - where 100% of all teachers and administrators are above average?
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Old 09-28-2023, 09:48 AM
 
7,859 posts, read 3,850,659 times
Reputation: 14854
Google tells me there are approximately 3.2 Million K-12 teachers in public schools in the USA, and their performance approximates Gaussian distribution:



... which is commonly called the Normal Distribution or the "Bell Curve." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution.


https://youtu.be/xgQhefFOXrM?si=IWDio3S4vKdbbu1L


We know with certainty that 10% of those 3.2 million teachers are in the bottom 10% of performance and should go through performance management with the hope of individual performance improvement (if possible) or separation (if necessary.)

And, there are about 91,900 public school principals in the USA.

We can place them on the Bell Curve as well, where 10% are in the bottom, and they also should go through performance management with the goal of improvement if possible and separation if necessary.
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