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Old 09-28-2023, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
LOL. The irony is thick.



It seems you believe teachers and administrators should not be held accountable for their poor performance You're not alone; many people whose paychecks are funded by the taxpaying public have such an entitlement mindset.
I never said such a thing.

But you send us the raw material.
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Old 09-28-2023, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Once again, we are discussing public education. Your one-liners about corporations might generate an interesting discussion if you post them in the Economics forum. You might even learn a thing or two.
This is where you guys want to play things from both sides. Sometimes you want to have schools run more like corporations. Other times you don't want to bring that general concept into the discussion. Anything to win the argument.
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Old 09-28-2023, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,640 posts, read 2,769,514 times
Reputation: 13322
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Google tells me there are approximately 3.2 Million K-12 teachers in public schools in the USA, and their performance approximates Gaussian distribution:



... which is commonly called the Normal Distribution or the "Bell Curve." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution.


https://youtu.be/xgQhefFOXrM?si=IWDio3S4vKdbbu1L


We know with certainty that 10% of those 3.2 million teachers are in the bottom 10% of performance and should go through performance management with the hope of individual performance improvement (if possible) or separation (if necessary.)

And, there are about 91,900 public school principals in the USA.

We can place them on the Bell Curve as well, where 10% are in the bottom, and they also should go through performance management with the goal of improvement if possible and separation if necessary.
Amazingly enough, once you fire the bottom 10%, you'll still have a bottom 10%!

Go read "Out of the Crisis" by Dr. Deming. What you're describing is the Neutron Jack approach which took GE from a world-class manufacturing organization to an underperforming imitation bank in just 20 years.
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Old 09-28-2023, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Amazingly enough, once you fire the bottom 10%, you'll still have a bottom 10%!

...
And a lot of teacherless classrooms.

I was stuck hiring a math teacher one year whom I knew was not satisfactory. But she was the ONLY candidate for the job. I couldn't have no math teacher in that classroom. So we got by as best we could and ushered her out of teaching as soon as we eventually -- almost a year later -- found a satisfactory replacement.

The first year I taught, I took a second semester job teaching general science at a high school in western NYS. The first semester there had been 13 teachers in that classroom, most just substitutes, but a couple had been certified.

And some amateurs on this forum just keep clobbering educators on the head, apparently thinking that will boost morale and keep teachers in the clasrroom.
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Old 09-28-2023, 01:57 PM
 
12,892 posts, read 9,142,097 times
Reputation: 35043
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Google tells me there are approximately 3.2 Million K-12 teachers in public schools in the USA, and their performance approximates Gaussian distribution:



... which is commonly called the Normal Distribution or the "Bell Curve." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution.


https://youtu.be/xgQhefFOXrM?si=IWDio3S4vKdbbu1L


We know with certainty that 10% of those 3.2 million teachers are in the bottom 10% of performance and should go through performance management with the hope of individual performance improvement (if possible) or separation (if necessary.)

And, there are about 91,900 public school principals in the USA.

We can place them on the Bell Curve as well, where 10% are in the bottom, and they also should go through performance management with the goal of improvement if possible and separation if necessary.
I'm not sure the Gaussian applies to education. For the heck of it, I evaluated all the teachers I'd had over my life and plotted them. Granted this isn't a scientific data set, but I found it very interesting that while my college professors were somewhat Gaussian, my schoolteachers were bi modal. With roughly 40% in the good to excellent category and 60% in the poor category, (and of that group, roughly one third of the poor category should not be allowed anywhere near a classroom they were so bad).

I was originally surprised to see that, but when I think about it, the set of teachers is neither random, nor normal, so why should it be Gaussian. It's not so surprising when you consider why people self-select to become teachers and almost all have been through an education curriculum.
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Old 09-28-2023, 02:57 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,132 posts, read 16,220,030 times
Reputation: 28369
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And a lot of teacherless classrooms.

I was stuck hiring a math teacher one year whom I knew was not satisfactory. But she was the ONLY candidate for the job. I couldn't have no math teacher in that classroom. So we got by as best we could and ushered her out of teaching as soon as we eventually -- almost a year later -- found a satisfactory replacement.

The first year I taught, I took a second semester job teaching general science at a high school in western NYS. The first semester there had been 13 teachers in that classroom, most just substitutes, but a couple had been certified.

And some amateurs on this forum just keep clobbering educators on the head, apparently thinking that will boost morale and keep teachers in the clasrroom.
This cannot be emphasized enough. You have to have someone in that classroom with those 30 students. Ideally, it is a qualified content competent, high-performing teacher. Right now, reality is, in far too many classes we consider ourselves lucky to get a warm body that finished at least 64 college credits with above a C average who isn’t creepy. There were a couple of school systems in my state that were genuinely concerned they would be unable able to put an adult in every class, even with the lowering of standards for both teachers and subs.

All these people talking smack about getting rid of mediocre teachers and replacing them with mythical worthy teachers can’t get it through their thick heads that if I get rid of the mediocre teacher there is no one to hire, let alone someone better. So you better believe right now I’m hanging on to mediocre teachers as tight as I can and just hoping I can train them into decent enough. The alternative is grim.
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Old 09-28-2023, 03:09 PM
 
4,389 posts, read 4,252,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
This cannot be emphasized enough. You have to have someone in that classroom with those 30 students. Ideally, it is a qualified content competent, high-performing teacher. Right now, reality is, in far too many classes we consider ourselves lucky to get a warm body that finished at least 64 college credits with above a C average who isn’t creepy. There were a couple of school systems in my state that were genuinely concerned they would be unable able to put an adult in every class, even with the lowering of standards for both teachers and subs.
All these people talking smack about getting rid of mediocre teachers and replacing them with mythical worthy teachers can’t get it through their thick heads that if I get rid of the mediocre teacher there is no one to hire, let alone someone better. So you better believe right now I’m hanging on to mediocre teachers as tight as I can and just hoping I can train them into decent enough. The alternative is grim.
I used to joke that we didn't just have a shortage of qualified, competent teachers--we had a shortage of INCOMPETENT teachers, people who were willing but unable to get the job done.

Our school went without an 11th-grade English teacher for FOUR years because no one wanted the job. The position was filled temporarily by a very promising young woman, but she left a few weeks into the school year because downtown didn't get her contract sorted out quickly enough and another district hired her away. No one else applied for an entire 4-year span. Students enrolled as freshmen who graduated four years later never knew anyone but a series of mostly incompetent and sometimes creepy subs.

Such is life in the inner city school.
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Old 09-28-2023, 03:19 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,064 posts, read 24,554,984 times
Reputation: 33069
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
This cannot be emphasized enough. You have to have someone in that classroom with those 30 students. Ideally, it is a qualified content competent, high-performing teacher. Right now, reality is, in far too many classes we consider ourselves lucky to get a warm body that finished at least 64 college credits with above a C average who isn’t creepy. There were a couple of school systems in my state that were genuinely concerned they would be unable able to put an adult in every class, even with the lowering of standards for both teachers and subs.

All these people talking smack about getting rid of mediocre teachers and replacing them with mythical worthy teachers can’t get it through their thick heads that if I get rid of the mediocre teacher there is no one to hire, let alone someone better. So you better believe right now I’m hanging on to mediocre teachers as tight as I can and just hoping I can train them into decent enough. The alternative is grim.
Thank you. And I might just add that many principals do work to upgrade teacher skills for those who are substandard. And it ain't easy.
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Old 09-28-2023, 03:32 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,575 posts, read 60,878,723 times
Reputation: 61257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
This cannot be emphasized enough. You have to have someone in that classroom with those 30 students. Ideally, it is a qualified content competent, high-performing teacher. Right now, reality is, in far too many classes we consider ourselves lucky to get a warm body that finished at least 64 college credits with above a C average who isn’t creepy. There were a couple of school systems in my state that were genuinely concerned they would be unable able to put an adult in every class, even with the lowering of standards for both teachers and subs.

All these people talking smack about getting rid of mediocre teachers and replacing them with mythical worthy teachers can’t get it through their thick heads that if I get rid of the mediocre teacher there is no one to hire, let alone someone better. So you better believe right now I’m hanging on to mediocre teachers as tight as I can and just hoping I can train them into decent enough. The alternative is grim.
Add to the above, what constitutes a "good teacher" can't even be agreed upon. Put five people in a room and ask them what a "good teacher" is and you'll get six, and sometimes seven, different answers.

I related a few posts ago how I went from "Master Teacher" to being scheduled for intensive supervision in a quarter and a half. The only thing that saved me was the Curriculum Specialist who came in to drive the final nail in that coffin said at the meeting after school with myself and the Principal (and I quote), "He's right, most of those kids can't ****ing read".
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Old 09-28-2023, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Eastern Washington
17,234 posts, read 57,214,925 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
As usual, you make excellent points.

In the history of mankind, true advances and breakthroughs have been the result of the work of a tiny fraction of the population - extraordinarily gifted people. This is true across disciplines - the arts, the hard sciences, biology, medicine, economics, mathematics, material science, all the various engineering disciplines, literature, construction, organizational development, warfare, education, politics, law, technology, manufacturing, etc etc etc.

Yes, a tiny sliver of mankind is responsible for advances and breakthroughs. Identifying and nurturing such extraordinary people at an early age is one of the best bets we can make to drive GDP upward in the future in the global war for economic dominance.

It is critical that our educational systems be reformed to focus on this. It is also unlikely ever to happen, given the entrenched special interests of the administrative/bureaucratic entrenched employees and retirees who depend upon the status quo for their paychecks. We see even in this thread those who purport to have been career educators/administrators look at the private sector not with admiration for contributions to the economy and society but with envy and not-particularly-hidden desires for wealth redistribution to the educator class.

But hope springs eternal, as the saying goes. I am hopeful that some young people will go on to do great things despite their K-12 public education.
I honestly think that gifted kids should be "cut from the herd" within the first 3 grades and should go to a separate pipeline where they are with their true peers, not left to wander around bored with kids 2, 3, even 4 standard deviations lower than them in IQ. (Don't tell me IQ is not real or it does not matter! It is very real and it certainly matters! Would you say your fast ball speed is irrelevant to your ability to be a baseball pitcher!?) This might cost some extra money but I'm talking about the top 2%, maybe 5%, at most 10%. So for 10 regular schools, you would only need one "honors" school, or whatever you want to call it. Now of course the 90%'s parents would squeal like stuck hogs, but, why rebel when the academic elite are given proper grooming? They certainly don't rebel when the elite football players are cut from the herd and given special treatment. Go figure. This would be damn near impossible politically, and politics is not my thing, but the extra expense of a separate elite pipeline, just as we have had "differently abled" or whatever pipelines for the slow witted - would not cost much more and might actually save money. I would expect the teachers who really know their subjects would angle to get into that elite pipeline, I know I would.

I can tell you that the Russian culture does something like this, rewarding academic excellence. I'm not certain what they do and at what grade, but they damn sure got results! When I did some work at the Kurchatov Institute several years ago when bilateral relations were a lot better, I replaced a guy who was kind of a cowboy, he was by no means dumb but probably not MENSA level even. I got special treatment all the time there, partly because they sussed out my superior IQ very quickly, but more because I could speak and read the language - a non-trivial investment in time and particularly in effort by "moi" - and thus I was able to get a Hell of a lot more done than the English only "peer" group could. Which largely generated "fear and loathing" from the "peer" group. Well, "enriche vous!" guys. As you are, (ignorant of Russian) I once was. As I am (speaking and reading at a decent if not really excellent level) you can one day be.

Ironically the Kurchatov Project (nuclear material security upgrades) was considered a "turkey" and a "hot potato" and my predecessor was glad to be rid of it. Work was getting done, but it was always late and frequently over budget. But like the bumblebee who theoretically can't fly, I didn't read that report, and "went ahead and flew anyway". Somewhat reminded of that poem about a guy who is fighting with a sword in a battle and, looking at the prince's superior sword, ("that blue blade") breaks his (cheap) sword ("it ain't fair! Waaa!") and leaves the battle. The prince subsequently loses his personal sword and picks up the stub of the original fighter's sword, and wins the battle with it. So as Uncle Jeff put it: "It ain't the arrow, it's the Indian!"

I think all along this thread, both students and teachers could largely be told, as Captain Bligh once said: "It seems to me, that you are contemptuous of effort!"

I don't think Americans were like this before WWII. I don't know I am old but not that old.

Anyway, if you read this far, thanks for reading my "old guy" rant.
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