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Old 09-29-2023, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,093 posts, read 24,586,495 times
Reputation: 33124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
General Electric's demise had nothing to do with performance management of personnel.

The success of the pantheon of Silicon Valley firms shows that meritocracy and performance management works wonders.
And now let's take a field trip and see if the physical plants of public schools, and the financial resources of public schools pretty much match the physical plants and financial resources of those Silicon Valley firms. Do you really not know the answer to that?

In 2001, a worldwide corporation with headquarters in northern Virginia was our "business partner". They invited our faculty and staff to their headquarters for opening day for teachers (a week before students reported to school). That corporation spent more serving out faculty and staff breakfast than my budget had to spend on general school supplies for a month, and more on serving our staff lunch than my budget for general school supplies for two months. Not to mention teacher gift bags. Everything about their physical plant -- the building itself -- was state of the art. Their floors weren't cracking asbestos floor tiles, the walls weren't painted cinder block, the ceilings weren't stained panels, the lighting wasn't bare flouescent, the staff cafeteria was catered...not school slop (and btw, when, on occasion, we would invited members of our PTA or parents to partake of school cafeteria food, they'd typically push the plate of school cafeteria away...the same food their children was eating), the furniture was up-to-date (not in some cases 40 years old), the bathrooms were state of the art (not stalls with no doors and any broken sinks)...I could go on and on. Their auditorium had state of the art technology that could play any form of graphics or sound from around the world...not overhead projectors. Staff work areas were state of the art, spacious, any technology needed, ultra-modern communication systems that could contact any location in the world with audio and video...while our school didn't even have one phone/intercom per classroom to contact the school office.

So stop with comparing the success of Silicon Valley firms with a typical public school.
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Old 09-29-2023, 09:55 AM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
20,135 posts, read 16,229,559 times
Reputation: 28384
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
At 13 Baltimore City high schools, zero students tested proficient on the 2023 state math exam

https://foxbaltimore.com/news/projec...tate-math-exam

"The latest round of state test results is raising alarm in Baltimore City Schools. Project Baltimore found that 40% of Baltimore City high schools, where the state exam was given, did not have any students score proficient in math. Not one student."

I wonder what the parents of students in those 13 Baltimore public schools would suggest as a solution:
  • Do nothing because they don't think see a problem to be solved
  • Replace incompetent administrators and bureaucrats
  • Replace incompetent teachers and principals
  • Reward teachers, principals, administrators and bureaucrats for a job well done with even higher wages & fatter pensions
93.76% of all Baltimore City School students are on Free lunch. Not reduced, totally free. Kid you not, out of a school system with over 76,000 students less than 5,000 are from families considered “wealthy” to have enough money to feed their children, even partially. Of the thirteen high schools listed that number is basically zero.

Clearly, the school system is not taking a successful approach towards addressing the academic struggles of their students as they should at least be having 10-20% at grade level. Tracking beginning at kindergarten would do a lot to help at least with that statistic. But….

I want to go back to the fact that you have to be able to find adults willing to be in those classrooms. I am talking about any kind of adult. Working in Baltimore City Schools is dangerous, teachers are assaulted on a regular basis, to include by students as young as the kindergarten and first grade level. Teachers in their school system have to be paid more than the average teacher, which I assume is what you are implying to be a “reward”. Because newsflash, you must have an adult in the classroom and they are supposed to have a college degree. So you have to pay someone enough that they are willing to be hit every once in a while, even if they are crappy teachers. Really, it’s combat pay.

I was offered $37,000 more a year if I was willing to drive the same 30 minutes, just in a different direction, to Louisville Kentucky working for JCPS. I turned it down, didn’t even need to think about it. That $37,000, which is not a small amount of money, was not enough to make up for the frustration of dealing with multi-generational anti-school/education attitude, being blamed for societal woes that schools are incapable of fixing, and the very real potential physical danger by out-of-control students.

Sure, it seems quite logical to say the following bolded are the solution:
  • Do nothing because they don't think see a problem to be solved
  • Replace incompetent administrators and bureaucrats
  • Replace incompetent teachers and principals
  • Reward teachers, principals, administrators and bureaucrats for a job well done with even higher wages & fatter pensions
The fallacy is there is no one to replace them with. And, from someone actually in the trenches trying to put teachers in a far less troublesome school system, money is not going to fix it.
__________________
When I post in bold red that is moderator action and, per the TOS, can only be discussed through Direct Message.Moderator - Diabetes and Kentucky (including Lexington & Louisville)
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:07 AM
 
12,901 posts, read 9,158,664 times
Reputation: 35061
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
Except that school systems, which means classroom teachers, have been tasked to solve that problem along with a myriad of others.

Kid is a chronic absentee: What will you do to catch him up when he bothers to show up to school?
Kid spends over half his time in juvenile lock-up: What will you do to ensure he remains on track when he isn't locked up?
Kid is a known drunk/substance abuser: What are you going to do to break through that haze?
Kid is five years below grade level in reading: How will you differentiate the lessons to ensure he passes the HSA/PARCC?
And on and on.
Keep in mind that I'm talking from the perspective of a decent middle/upper middle class school. The less than good ones I was at early in my career were worse, even forty years ago.
What would I do? Fail the kid. Not waste the effort on him or her. Spend my time on the ones that put forth effort. I have no problem telling the truth to power even if it puts my job at risk. I've done that before.
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,093 posts, read 24,586,495 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
What would I do? Fail the kid. Not waste the effort on him or her. Spend my time on the ones that put forth effort. I have no problem telling the truth to power even if it puts my job at risk. I've done that before.
And what do you think your approach will result in 10 or 20 years down the road. Correct answer: another drain on society.

There wasn't a year in the 33 that I taught and administered that I didn't see at least one kid turn things around. And there wasn't a year in those 33 years that I didn't see some star student sink like a rock, or end up in prison a few years later, or fail at a business, or get fired from a job, etc.

Whatsoever you do to the least of your brothers, that you do unto me. You ought to look that up and think about it.
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:31 AM
 
12,901 posts, read 9,158,664 times
Reputation: 35061
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
And what do you think your approach will result in 10 or 20 years down the road. Correct answer: another drain on society.

There wasn't a year in the 33 that I taught and administered that I didn't see at least one kid turn things around. And there wasn't a year in those 33 years that I didn't see some star student sink like a rock, or end up in prison a few years later, or fail at a business, or get fired from a job, etc.

Whatsoever you do to the least of your brothers, that you do unto me. You ought to look that up and think about it.
How many did you sacrifice to "save" that one? I get it; you have a soft spot for the poor students and a dislike of the good students. You've made that clear over the years. A little part of you celebrates when a good student fails later on in life. But you know those exceptions you keep pointing out are just that -- the exceptions.

And as for your little quote you like to toss out, I've done a lot more "doing" than you know about. One thing I've learned is you can't want it for them. You can show them the way, but you can't make them follow it. Meanwhile there's a bunch of other kids waiting for help who want it. I'm not going to sacrifice them so I can play the hero. And if that other decides to turn back and ask for help, I'll be there to give it.
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,093 posts, read 24,586,495 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
How many did you sacrifice to "save" that one? I get it; you have a soft spot for the poor students and a dislike of the good students. You've made that clear over the years. A little part of you celebrates when a good student fails later on in life. But you know those exceptions you keep pointing out are just that -- the exceptions.

And as for your little quote you like to toss out, I've done a lot more "doing" than you know about. One thing I've learned is you can't want it for them. You can show them the way, but you can't make them follow it. Meanwhile there's a bunch of other kids waiting for help who want it. I'm not going to sacrifice them so I can play the hero. And if that other decides to turn back and ask for help, I'll be there to give it.
No one was sacrificed.

I was principal of what was considered to be one of the most succesful gifted center program in the state of Virginia...if not the top in the state. Principal of the middle school that almost always got the most gifted students into Thomas Jefferson High School for Science & Technology -- "a Virginia state-chartered magnet high school in Fairfax County, Virginia ... A selective admissions program was initiated in 1985 through the cooperation of state and county governments, as well as corporate sponsorship from the defense and technology industries. It is one of 18 Virginia Governor's Schools, and a founding member of the National Consortium for Specialized Secondary Schools of Mathematics, Science and Technology. In 2021 and 2022, U.S. News & World Report ranked the school first in its annual "Best U.S. High Schools" list."

So don't hand me any crapola about disliking "the good students".
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Old 09-29-2023, 10:47 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,469 posts, read 18,562,169 times
Reputation: 35222
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No one was sacrificed.

I was principal of what was considered to be one of the most succesful gifted center program in the state of Virginia...if not the top in the state. Principal of the middle school that almost always got the most gifted students into Thomas Jefferson High School for Science & Technology -- "a Virginia state-chartered magnet high school in Fairfax County, Virginia ... A selective admissions program was initiated in 1985 through the cooperation of state and county governments, as well as corporate sponsorship from the defense and technology industries. It is one of 18 Virginia Governor's Schools, and a founding member of the National Consortium for Specialized Secondary Schools of Mathematics, Science and Technology. In 2021 and 2022, U.S. News & World Report ranked the school first in its annual "Best U.S. High Schools" list."

So don't hand me any crapola about disliking "the good students".
maybe not back then but today is vastly different
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:02 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,637 posts, read 2,788,809 times
Reputation: 13334
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
What would I do? Fail the kid. Not waste the effort on him or her. Spend my time on the ones that put forth effort. I have no problem telling the truth to power even if it puts my job at risk. I've done that before.
You're not permitted to fail them. Now, what do you do?
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:05 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,577 posts, read 60,922,955 times
Reputation: 61306
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
What would I do? Fail the kid. Not waste the effort on him or her. Spend my time on the ones that put forth effort. I have no problem telling the truth to power even if it puts my job at risk. I've done that before.
As have I. Which seriously did crimp my career in subtle ways.
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Old 09-29-2023, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,093 posts, read 24,586,495 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
maybe not back then but today is vastly different
But selfish attitudes of amateurs who are constant critics and are willing to throw kids aways haven't changed.

Princeton conferred about 1,900 degree last year. MIT 3,861. Harvard nearly 9,000. Yale over 4,000. And most of those students came from public schools. It ain't the desert some here make it out to be.
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