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Old 10-03-2023, 12:47 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,026 posts, read 24,528,151 times
Reputation: 33040

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Of course I do. You really ought to read my posts more carefully. I was taking issue with the statement that teachers are somehow "complicit" in the dysfunction that is American public education, because they follow orders. Well, they follow orders unless they want to be (in only the most extreme cases) fired (but that usually only happens when they make a big public outcry) or punitively transferred to the worst posting that can be found (usually 8th grade math in the ghetto). The previous poster's implication that teachers ought to "resist the system" is asinine in the real world where teachers do it because they need the money to live.

And if you don't think assignments and transfers are used as punishment, I invite you to come teach in some large urban districts.
Perhaps your posts are clear to you, but half of this one was not clear to me.
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Old 10-03-2023, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,622 posts, read 2,761,364 times
Reputation: 13295
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Perhaps your posts are clear to you, but half of this one was not clear to me.
Well, I'll break it down.

First (very short) paragraph:

You mean "complicit" as in "do what you're told, or we'll make your life miserable and transfer you to 8th grade math in the ghetto"?

Meaning: don't say "teachers are somehow complicit in the dumpster fire"; they're following orders.

Second paragraph:

In the world of manufacturing (you know, where wealth is actually CREATED, not just moved around!) it's been well known and accepted for decades now that Dr. Deming had it right and that 99% of so-called "individual failures" are systemic failures. Yet in education the constant cry is "blame the teachers, if we just had better teachers that were all saints dedicated to working 16 hours a day under horrible working conditions, and also geniuses who could decipher exactly the needs of each and every student and give each and every student deep individual attention, even wiht 40 kids in a class for a 50 minute class period - THEN education would work right!"

Meaning: In almost every field except the education industry, it's well known that apparent employee [teacher] failures are 99% due to system defects; but in education all the industry can come up with is that "teachers just need to try harder; all our teachers need to be above average".

Third paragraph:

And of course whenever the test scores go down the response is to double down on the things that aren't working; further reduce teacher autonomy, add more paperwork and documentation, buy more computers, and introduce yet another rejigger of the curriculum.

Meaning: the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

There, is that helpful?
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Old 10-03-2023, 05:46 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,787 posts, read 58,271,470 times
Reputation: 46288
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Well, I'll break it down.

...
Meaning: don't say "teachers are somehow complicit in the dumpster fire"; they're following orders.

...I]

Meaning: In almost every field except the education industry, it's well known that apparent employee [teacher] failures are 99% due to system defects; but in education all the industry can come up with is that "teachers just need to try harder; all our teachers need to be above average".

Third paragraph:

...
Meaning: the definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expect different results.

There, is that helpful?
It was so ironic to listen to a lengthy PBS special today interviewing a University Director of Admissions. Asking so many of the very relevant and explicit questions that should have availed very easy and concise answers.

1) Tuition rates
2) Educational costs vs. overhead
3) Tenured staff
4) Relevant instruction
5) Placement stats
6) Male vs. female enrollments and recruiting.
7) Undergrads pursuing additional studies.
8) Diversity programs and quota's
9) Student population / enrollment declines.
10) Local industry and business partnerships.

The Director gave ZERO concrete answers or examples. Just like this thread...
1) Defer blame
2) Never acknowledge failure
3) Do not embrace answers that are quite apparent.
4) Spew ceaseless excuses
5) Solutions ??? (not even in the thought process, let's just defer any points that could bring discussion (even positive / fruitful / progressing to identifying a resolution... and certainly no solutions.)

Must be a general plague within USA Edu.
Seek answers elsewhere.

Cyber guidance for outcomes may be necessary to get us out of the Starting Blocks.
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Old 10-03-2023, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,026 posts, read 24,528,151 times
Reputation: 33040
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
It was so ironic to listen to a lengthy PBS special today interviewing a University Director of Admissions. Asking so many of the very relevant and explicit questions that should have availed very easy and concise answers.

1) Tuition rates
2) Educational costs vs. overhead
3) Tenured staff
4) Relevant instruction
5) Placement stats
6) Male vs. female enrollments and recruiting.
7) Undergrads pursuing additional studies.
8) Diversity programs and quota's
9) Student population / enrollment declines.
10) Local industry and business partnerships.

The Director gave ZERO concrete answers or examples. Just like this thread...
1) Defer blame
2) Never acknowledge failure
3) Do not embrace answers that are quite apparent.
4) Spew ceaseless excuses
5) Solutions ??? (not even in the thought process, let's just defer any points that could bring discussion (even positive / fruitful / progressing to identifying a resolution... and certainly no solutions.)

Must be a general plague within USA Edu.
Seek answers elsewhere.

Cyber guidance for outcomes may be necessary to get us out of the Starting Blocks.
I'm going to tell you what the problem with your post -- and general attitude -- is regarding the topic of education...that one phrase above: "easy...answers".

You seem to think you have all the answers. You don't. You have your personal opinions and preferences.

One of the best things about the PTA in my school was that they pretty much couldn't agree on anything. Someone would bring up a topic. There'd be an argument...I mean a discussion. Opinions were splintered. And nothing would get done. And that's not unlike what happens at a lot of Board Of Education meetings where someone in the community tosses out some grand solution that very few other people agree with...and no consensus is reached.

We can all throw out ideas. Big whoop. You gotta build a consensus. And I don't see you -- or anyone else here -- doing that. Including me.

But that's why it's not easy. It's not about you having your way or me having my way. It's about negotiating a way forward...and no one is doing that...not in our federal government, not in most of our state governments, not in most of our local governments, not in most of our school boards, and certainly not on this website. A personal opinion is nothing more than a personal opinion.

That's why it's NOT easy.

Go ahead. Go to the next school board meeting in your district. Tell them what you think. And then see what happens.
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Old 10-04-2023, 03:25 AM
 
Location: Honolulu, HI
24,764 posts, read 9,559,912 times
Reputation: 23077
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
The article cites some progress in using virtual/remote teachers. While not ideal, it seems to add some value sometimes.
Bad students use remote learning to watch netflix and youtube and reddit all day.

Good students will use remote learning to better themselves.

In summary, no real change from physical classrooms.
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Old 10-04-2023, 09:20 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,787 posts, read 58,271,470 times
Reputation: 46288
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
...
...

... You gotta build a consensus. ....
Fortunately, effective leaders have no need to run their enterprises via an uninformed and passive committee. They propose effective SOLUTIONS, and they have the demonstrated success to gain the minimal social capital needed to implement and move the organization forward to meet agreed objectives. It works very well everyday, around the world in business, government, and schools.

The successful schools and education systems of the world are very progressive, collaborative, and have the support of their staff, students, parents, and government. Sound familiar? Not in the USA,
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Old 10-04-2023, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,026 posts, read 24,528,151 times
Reputation: 33040
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Fortunately, effective leaders have no need to run their enterprises via an uninformed and passive committee. They propose effective SOLUTIONS, and they have the demonstrated success to gain the minimal social capital needed to implement and move the organization forward to meet agreed objectives. It works very well everyday, around the world in business, government, and schools.

The successful schools and education systems of the world are very progressive, collaborative, and have the support of their staff, students, parents, and government. Sound familiar? Not in the USA,
And certainly not something you have been involved in bringing about.

And a public school is not a business; one has to answer to the electorate, the other does not. And by the way "20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years". Not exactly a recipe for success.
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Old 10-04-2023, 10:27 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,787 posts, read 58,271,470 times
Reputation: 46288
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
...

And a public school is not a business; one has to answer to the electorate, the other does not. And by the way "20% of new businesses fail during the first two years of being open, 45% during the first five years, and 65% during the first 10 years". Not exactly a recipe for success.
Obviously you don't know who you reply to, as all of our Linked-in accts clearly show our credentials and current daily contributions to communities, schools, businesses.

And the US education system is equivalent to a ' new business start-up'. That's news to all of us'.

I'm voting for more virtual teachers AND especially more virtual administrators, today!
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Old 10-04-2023, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,026 posts, read 24,528,151 times
Reputation: 33040
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Obviously you don't know who you reply to, as all of our Linked-in accts clearly show our credentials and current daily contributions to communities, schools, businesses.

And the US education system is equivalent to a ' new business start-up'. That's news to all of us'.

I'm voting for more virtual teachers AND especially more virtual administrators, today!
I know exactly who you are -- the self-appointed constant critic.

If you wish to fill us in on the leadership roles where you have successfully and substantially changed schools, I'm sure we'd read what you post and consider your credentials.
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Old 10-04-2023, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,622 posts, read 2,761,364 times
Reputation: 13295
Well, I can say that from my perspective the solutions certainly ARE NOT easy.

The problem is an overconstrained one.

You want to improve outcomes for the top students, the middle students, and the lowest ones, but no one's willing to test students and put them in tracks; there's a huge contingent of parents and citizens who still harbor resentment toward their own school days and want to take authority and autonomy away from teachers; no one in the public education system would be able to keep their job if they stated some obvious facts like : Some students are NOT destined for college or professional careers; some students are destined for a life of low wage labor because they simply don't have the equipment for other things; disruptive students and non-performing students make it difficult and impossible for the other ones to learn but being mainstreamed doesn't improve their outcomes either; public school system administration buildings continue to be "jobs-for-the-boys" for those whose backgrounds and other characteristics match the particular flavor of the month, especially as per whoever the current superintendent is; school boards are almost universally focused on each member's political agenda; all the money spent on computers isn't a tenth as effective as running off "The 100 Addition Facts" on a mimeograph and drilling every class once a week for a year; 99% of "curriculum enhancements" are less effective than the way our great-grandmothers were taught the same subjects... shall I continue? now none of this can be changed, yet somehow the educational system is to be improved, so every child is able to go to college and be a doctor, lawyer, or internet entrepreneur/millionaire.

Can we, maybe, just maybe, see why parents in great droves are opting either for private schools or top-rated suburban districts?
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