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Old 10-04-2023, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,970 posts, read 24,467,741 times
Reputation: 33023

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Well, I can say that from my perspective the solutions certainly ARE NOT easy.

The problem is an overconstrained one.

You want to improve outcomes for the top students, the middle students, and the lowest ones, but no one's willing to test students and put them in tracks; there's a huge contingent of parents and citizens who still harbor resentment toward their own school days and want to take authority and autonomy away from teachers; no one in the public education system would be able to keep their job if they stated some obvious facts like : Some students are NOT destined for college or professional careers; some students are destined for a life of low wage labor because they simply don't have the equipment for other things; disruptive students and non-performing students make it difficult and impossible for the other ones to learn but being mainstreamed doesn't improve their outcomes either; public school system administration buildings continue to be "jobs-for-the-boys" for those whose backgrounds and other characteristics match the particular flavor of the month, especially as per whoever the current superintendent is; school boards are almost universally focused on each member's political agenda; all the money spent on computers isn't a tenth as effective as running off "The 100 Addition Facts" on a mimeograph and drilling every class once a week for a year; 99% of "curriculum enhancements" are less effective than the way our great-grandmothers were taught the same subjects... shall I continue? now none of this can be changed, yet somehow the educational system is to be improved, so every child is able to go to college and be a doctor, lawyer, or internet entrepreneur/millionaire.

Can we, maybe, just maybe, see why parents in great droves are opting either for private schools or top-rated suburban districts?
First off... who is "You"? Because if you're talking about me, I've stated repeatedly that I am in favor of a degree of "tracking" (let's say for starters -- "above average", "average", "below average".

I've also stated that no, not everyone should plan on college, but that we ought to lead students to the point where that is at least one of their options.

I've also stated that too many students (and I am specifically talking about SPED students) have been mainstreamed. It's an option for some, but not for many.

The problem of 'bad kids' is that every parent is a taxpayer and has a right to have their kids in a public school. We have to teach whoever walks in the door. I do think that there should be alternative schools for 'problem kids'...which is much easier for large systems than small systems.

So, are you saying that we should take education away from the school board concept? Frankly, I'd consider that...but then what?

Difficult to comment on what I bolded. That's vague, very general, and purely personal opinion.

"Great droves"? The figure I found was 91% of American students are in public schools.
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Old 10-13-2023, 01:29 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,768 posts, read 58,209,379 times
Reputation: 46265
Maybe Jane can come work on schools after she's done with her banking gig.
Citigroup CEO Jane Fraser scraps five layers of management at Wall Street giant
..after which... More money for those delivering 'product'

And possiblly room (and $$) for AI / Virtual Teachers (and adminstrators) to fill a few gaps.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...80fa3044&ei=42
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Old 10-14-2023, 01:23 AM
 
Location: In the elevator!
836 posts, read 481,313 times
Reputation: 1427
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Well, I can say that from my perspective the solutions certainly ARE NOT easy.

The problem is an overconstrained one.

You want to improve outcomes for the top students, the middle students, and the lowest ones, but no one's willing to test students and put them in tracks; there's a huge contingent of parents and citizens who still harbor resentment toward their own school days and want to take authority and autonomy away from teachers; no one in the public education system would be able to keep their job if they stated some obvious facts like : Some students are NOT destined for college or professional careers; some students are destined for a life of low wage labor because they simply don't have the equipment for other things; disruptive students and non-performing students make it difficult and impossible for the other ones to learn but being mainstreamed doesn't improve their outcomes either; public school system administration buildings continue to be "jobs-for-the-boys" for those whose backgrounds and other characteristics match the particular flavor of the month, especially as per whoever the current superintendent is; school boards are almost universally focused on each member's political agenda; all the money spent on computers isn't a tenth as effective as running off "The 100 Addition Facts" on a mimeograph and drilling every class once a week for a year; 99% of "curriculum enhancements" are less effective than the way our great-grandmothers were taught the same subjects... shall I continue? now none of this can be changed, yet somehow the educational system is to be improved, so every child is able to go to college and be a doctor, lawyer, or internet entrepreneur/millionaire.

Can we, maybe, just maybe, see why parents in great droves are opting either for private schools or top-rated suburban districts?
The whole system needs to be abolished completely and replaced with a new one.
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Old 10-14-2023, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,970 posts, read 24,467,741 times
Reputation: 33023
Quote:
Originally Posted by StarryKnight1 View Post
The whole system needs to be abolished completely and replaced with a new one.
Get real and get practical.
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Old 10-14-2023, 09:51 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,768 posts, read 58,209,379 times
Reputation: 46265
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Get real and get practical.
yes..
this>>>
The whole system needs to be abolished completely and replaced with a new one.

There will be no progress with bandaids and 'ideas'(?) / dirty laundry of those who have failed us(A) for the last 40 yrs.

abolished completely and replaced with a new one
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Old 10-14-2023, 01:31 PM
 
Location: In the elevator!
836 posts, read 481,313 times
Reputation: 1427
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Get real and get practical.
The only real and practical solution is that one, though. This over repaired and overspliced wire isn’t cutting it anymore.
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Old 10-17-2023, 07:53 AM
 
9,891 posts, read 7,778,971 times
Reputation: 24629
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
yes..
this>>>
The whole system needs to be abolished completely and replaced with a new one.

There will be no progress with bandaids and 'ideas'(?) / dirty laundry of those who have failed us(A) for the last 40 yrs.

abolished completely and replaced with a new one
I think it's happening. Our grandkids are doing great in their private schools and home schooling co-ops. More teaching materials are available now for home schoolers. It makes perfect sense that the virtual teachers, good ones, will soon be part of this change.
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Old 10-17-2023, 09:29 AM
 
14,431 posts, read 14,359,027 times
Reputation: 45871
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
I think it's happening. Our grandkids are doing great in their private schools and home schooling co-ops. More teaching materials are available now for home schoolers. It makes perfect sense that the virtual teachers, good ones, will soon be part of this change.
I do have some concerns about home school parents who haven't even been to college or never completed a four year degree (not saying that's your situation). Even with a homeschool program I really question whether they have the ability to teach. The law says they have a right to home school. Can't say I think its a good idea.
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Old 10-17-2023, 09:53 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,768 posts, read 58,209,379 times
Reputation: 46265
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I do have some concerns about home school parents who haven't even been to college or never completed a four year degree (not saying that's your situation). Even with a homeschool program I really question whether they have the ability to teach. The law says they have a right to home school. Can't say I think its a good idea.
We've been through thousands of homeschoolers (~300 / yr for last 40 yrs in our co-op).

So far, so good. We all help each other out (including grandparents, retired teachers, engineers (and many active teachers) and we hire retired professors and scientists for our week long camping field trips. Pretty impressive, especially since nearly all go to college instead of HS (for free in our state). Several Drs, lawyers, and many teachers as a result. Most are self employed business owners, often started during their Home School years.

Just hire some of each (Homeschooled, vs Public schools). You will quickly find out who is capable, smart, self motivated, and responsible.
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Old 10-17-2023, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,603 posts, read 2,736,246 times
Reputation: 13227
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
First off... who is "You"? Because if you're talking about me....
Supposedly a professional educator and has never heard of the generic "you".

I'll fill you (non-generic) in.

In all languages there are common usages that are not meant to be taken literally. These are called idiomatic expressions. In English the "generic you" is one of these. It is roughly equivalent to "one" in phrases where the exact person being talked about is undefined, or considered as part of a class of people.

Example: "When you dig up big trees, be careful not to strain your back." Here, a literal translation would be something like "If one sets out to dig up a big tree, it's important for the person digging not to strain his or her back." But, because English is a spoken language with a store of idiomatic expressions, it's perfectly acceptable to use the first construction. Replying with something like "But I'm not going to dig up big trees! What do you mean, YOU?" is a non sequitur.

Abruptly challenging the use of idiomatic expressions in one's native language (and yes, I'm assuming the non-generic you is a native English speaker - is this the case?) because their literal meaning doesn't make sense is one of the characteristics of people who are insufficiently educated, or on the autism spectrum.
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