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Old 09-17-2023, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,205 posts, read 23,838,485 times
Reputation: 32589

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
The class size would be easy to fix with money, the discipline is not. Even so, with the class size issue what you are not getting is the critical problem created by large class sizes is how it impacts discipline, not just the size itself. Grading extra papers is annoying which can be soothed somewhat by more money. An out of control class can’t.

Teaching public K-12 has literally become a physically dangerous job. Our district did not have one single school last year that did not have a teacher assaulted by a student, and most had multiple cases. Those assaults included everything from the now expected being spit on, kicked, bit, or slapped to having furniture thrown at them or even being shoved to the ground and hit multiple times by three students. Both the kids and the teachers have PTSD from some of these events but they are supposed to continue their day like nothing happened. Parents of these kids tend to react by either shrugging their shoulders and basically saying “good luck, don’t know what you’re going to do” or by accusing the teacher of picking on their precious angel. Some of the most violent ones you can literally do nothing to as they are on an IEP or 504. Money can not fix this, it needs policy changes starting with reevaluating “least restrictive environment” and “free APPROPRIATE education” or at the very least, extending those rights to every child.
Excellent post.
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Old 09-17-2023, 03:53 PM
 
Location: USA
2,856 posts, read 1,127,010 times
Reputation: 6461
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtab4994 View Post
No, they can't. We have a cultural problem in America, not a logistical problem.

My wife works in pre-K at a non-profit. She is seeing more and more 3 year olds coming to the program still in diapers. More and more parents who are more interested in looking at their phones than in what the therapist/teacher is telling them about their child. More and more parents that want a diagnosis for their kids -- not so they can help their kids but so they can get SSI -- and for the program to deal with the "problem".

Virtual teachers may help in a few model districts with a high percentage of wealthy two-parent households but these are the last people who need help.
Amen.
The kids who were coddled in the mid 1990's are now having kids of their own. The former were challenging enough; the latter are obnoxious, with "the world centers around me" attitude, and unable to fend for themselves in an age appropriate manner.
Indeed, we have an erosion of a civilized society at hand. Not all, but all too many, decide to have children without a clue as to what it takes to nuture that child to successfully succeed in the world. It's disheartening at best, and absolutely unbearable at worst.
I don't blame teachers for leaving the profession. This, coupled with the inability to control the classroom due to behavioral issues, makes it not only frustrating, but dangerous to remain in ever increasing instances.
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Old 09-17-2023, 04:55 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,782 posts, read 17,350,648 times
Reputation: 34235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
The class size would be easy to fix with money, the discipline is not. Even so, with the class size issue what you are not getting is the critical problem created by large class sizes is how it impacts discipline, not just the size itself. Grading extra papers is annoying which can be soothed somewhat by more money. An out of control class can’t.

Teaching public K-12 has literally become a physically dangerous job. Our district did not have one single school last year that did not have a teacher assaulted by a student, and most had multiple cases. Those assaults included everything from the now expected being spit on, kicked, bit, or slapped to having furniture thrown at them or even being shoved to the ground and hit multiple times by three students. Both the kids and the teachers have PTSD from some of these events but they are supposed to continue their day like nothing happened. Parents of these kids tend to react by either shrugging their shoulders and basically saying “good luck, don’t know what you’re going to do” or by accusing the teacher of picking on their precious angel. Some of the most violent ones you can literally do nothing to as they are on an IEP or 504. Money can not fix this, it needs policy changes starting with reevaluating “least restrictive environment” and “free APPROPRIATE education” or at the very least, extending those rights to every child.
No discipline at home and no discipline at school.
A generation of feral children who do what they want and have no fear of authority.

Didn't happen overnight though; years in the making via slow changes and policies.
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Old 09-17-2023, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,205 posts, read 23,838,485 times
Reputation: 32589
Any teacher who is assaulted should press charges against the child and sue the parents...with the full support of the school district.
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Old 09-17-2023, 07:05 PM
 
7,322 posts, read 3,524,114 times
Reputation: 13935
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Grading extra papers is annoying which can be soothed somewhat by more money.
In the link to the teacher's open letter above, you'll see this:

"Why spend hours grading papers and providing thoughtful feedback when kids know they will pass anyway?"
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Old 09-18-2023, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,518 posts, read 1,869,243 times
Reputation: 6377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
Beat me to it.

Honestly, my fear is that we are going to go to this model more and more - out of necessity rather than choice. Enrollment in college education programs continue to decrease at an alarming rate. Students have caught the message, being a teacher is a thankless job with low pay in comparison to other professions so they aren’t majoring in education. We have districts around here where almost 100% of their new hires were some form alt certification from “grow your own” former aides to whatever warm body with a high school diploma that showed up. Teachers quitting mid-year, once practically unheard of, now is no longer even a surprise and you just hope they give you some kind of notice.

When I think of all the decent teachers through the years that were tossed away without a second thought for incredibly petty reasons by some principals and look how desperate we are just to get someone who might work out I get a little ill.

One of the first reforms that might help stop this trend is getting rid of all the excess people in Central Offices. Not only are they sucking up all the money that should’ve been going to raises for teachers in the classroom, but the good ideals, nifty programs, mandatory reports and onerous assessments they dream up to justify their jobs which end up creating mounds of extra work for classroom teachers are large part of excessive stress that is creating the exodus from the classroom.

It is highly ironic that federal laws such as No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top, which were made in an effort to “improve” education by holding “bad teachers” accountable, have in actuality been instrumental in leading to a lowering of teacher quality.
I used to work for a very large school district (100,000 plus students). Central Office salaries were a small percentage of the overall budget. Beyond that, without Central Office services, you would have no building maintenance, food service, transportation, textbooks, bids to get the best prices on classroom supplies, paychecks, employee benefits, etc. I am not saying there isn’t waste, but the Central Office is an easy scapegoat. The CO is not the reason teachers are underpaid.
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Old 09-18-2023, 10:53 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,930 posts, read 59,929,483 times
Reputation: 60461
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
I used to work for a very large school district (100,000 plus students). Central Office salaries were a small percentage of the overall budget. Beyond that, without Central Office services, you would have no building maintenance, food service, transportation, textbooks, bids to get the best prices on classroom supplies, paychecks, employee benefits, etc. I am not saying there isn’t waste, but the Central Office is an easy scapegoat. The CO is not the reason teachers are underpaid.
We had a guy from CO who went around to schools to in-service teachers about how to use a VCR in the classroom. This was after we'd been equipped with VCRs in every room for over twenty years.

I had to leave that meeting because I started to act out, asking how bad you had to screw up to get that job. Except I didn't say screw up and I also postulated some scenarios involving teacher misbehavior.
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Old 09-18-2023, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Knoxville, TN
2,518 posts, read 1,869,243 times
Reputation: 6377
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
We had a guy from CO who went around to schools to in-service teachers about how to use a VCR in the classroom. This was after we'd been equipped with VCRs in every room for over twenty years.

I had to leave that meeting because I started to act out, asking how bad you had to screw up to get that job. Except I didn't say screw up and I also postulated some scenarios involving teacher misbehavior.
I would be fairly surprised if you were using the same VCR’s for 20 years or if all of the teachers had been there 20 years. I remember when we switched to combo players that could transfer VHS to DVD. Yes, many teachers needed to be trained to make sure they would use it. And when we switched from televisions to projectors ...more training needed. Technology continually evolves and training needs are ongoing. I am sure your attitude was appreciated by a person trying to do the job they were sent to do. I wonder if you would have been such a wise guy to their bosses….
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Old 09-18-2023, 12:58 PM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
44,930 posts, read 59,929,483 times
Reputation: 60461
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOinGA View Post
I would be fairly surprised if you were using the same VCR’s for 20 years or if all of the teachers had been there 20 years. I remember when we switched to combo players that could transfer VHS to DVD. Yes, many teachers needed to be trained to make sure they would use it. And when we switched from televisions to projectors ...more training needed. Technology continually evolves and training needs are ongoing. I am sure your attitude was appreciated by a person trying to do the job they were sent to do. I wonder if you would have been such a wise guy to their bosses….
No, they were the same machines. Mass purchase with misused grant money.

It was also a typical tech in-service, the presenter couldn't make anything work. Just like when we had to switch over to projectors. Then there was the Blackboard fiasco. And the Google Docs misfire (that guy couldn't even get his laptop to power up). And then the requirement that all 70 teachers incorporate Smart Boards into their lessons a minimum of twice a week. We had 12 Smart Boards for the entire staff and they were all assigned to the Math Department.
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Old 09-18-2023, 04:28 PM
 
7,322 posts, read 3,524,114 times
Reputation: 13935
Quote:
Originally Posted by North Beach Person View Post
No, they were the same machines. Mass purchase with misused grant money.

It was also a typical tech in-service, the presenter couldn't make anything work. Just like when we had to switch over to projectors. Then there was the Blackboard fiasco. And the Google Docs misfire (that guy couldn't even get his laptop to power up). And then the requirement that all 70 teachers incorporate Smart Boards into their lessons a minimum of twice a week. We had 12 Smart Boards for the entire staff and they were all assigned to the Math Department.
And some educators wonder why some taxpayers don't think more tax revenue for school districts is the answer to anything.
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