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Old 11-09-2023, 10:14 AM
 
12,625 posts, read 8,847,149 times
Reputation: 34499

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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
First - before any effort - you need to define the problem. You need to define the objective and non-objectives. Defining the problem, the objectives, and non-objectives and measurement system is hard work.

It is remarkable and illuminating that an articulation of the problem to be solved is wholly missing. It speaks volumes.
I was willing to let that slide since it's often very hard for those on the inside to articulate the problem. Consider that at the very top he attempts to define the problem as a binary choice (status quo vs tear it down) and in terms of "left" and "right" political leaning. If the education system were to articulate the problem, we would the wrong problem statement, and solutions in search of a problem like common core.

The ones who can best state the problem are those on the receiving end. Therefore, I looked at it more that the business sector (professional and vocational), parents, and students would have to take the lead on defining the problem. The are, after all, the ones most impacted by the education system. That's why I also would not allow Boards, teachers' unions, education colleges, and education publishers to be part of it. Those groups often attempt to define the solution that benefits them rather than the actual problem to be solved.
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Old 11-09-2023, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,861,466 times
Reputation: 32604
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
First - before any effort - you need to define the problem. You need to define the objective and non-objectives. Defining the problem, the objectives, and non-objectives and measurement system is hard work.

It is remarkable and illuminating that an articulation of the problem to be solved is wholly missing. It speaks volumes.
So offer some. My original post was pretty open.
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Old 11-09-2023, 11:51 AM
 
1,512 posts, read 1,161,118 times
Reputation: 3159
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Okay, I agree with the need. However I thing the first three groups listed are just a different slice of all other groups and don't need to be listed separately so long as the groups chosen aren't stacked toward a particular solution.

Of the other groups:
Teachers: yes
School Administrators: yes
Boards of Education: No; they would be customers/users of the information in the construct given
Parents: yes
Students: yes
College/university schools with teacher programs: No; again, because they should be users of the information as providers to the other groups listed.

Other groups to include:
Representatives from the business community to provide perspective on what they need graduates to know.
Representatives from STEM professional societies to provide perspective on what their profession needs graduates to know.
Representatives from various trade and technical unions to provide perspective on what their trade needs graduates to know.

Other groups to exclude are the various teachers' unions, ETS and other large testing companies, and textbook/education publishers, because all these groups, like boards of education and education colleges, have a financial interest in steering the outcome to suit their needs ahead of the needs of the students.
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to tnff again."

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Old 11-09-2023, 12:13 PM
 
Location: southwestern PA
22,291 posts, read 47,230,980 times
Reputation: 47257
National?
No thanks!
In my school district, the parents, teachers, and school board all work together just fine.
No need for national controls.
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Old 11-09-2023, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,238 posts, read 23,861,466 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pitt Chick View Post
National?
No thanks!
In my school district, the parents, teachers, and school board all work together just fine.
No need for national controls.
Who said anything about "national controls"?
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Old 11-09-2023, 12:48 PM
 
Location: southwestern PA
22,291 posts, read 47,230,980 times
Reputation: 47257
Maybe I could have picked a better word...
Control: the power to influence or direct people's behavior or the course of events.
I think your "national comprehensive study" would result in controlling what is done on the local level.
I am not in favor of that.
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Old 11-09-2023, 03:13 PM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,295 posts, read 28,366,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wac_432 View Post
Study all you want, the most important factor in a student's success is how focused on education their parents are. More parents are becoming less involved and the level of education is declining in students of those parents.
This is the key.

How do you get kids to study when they don’t want to study?

How do you get parents to be more involved in their kid’s education?

Without addressing those questions, you won’t get anywhere. You will keep chasing yourself around in circles.
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Old 11-10-2023, 07:00 AM
 
19,520 posts, read 17,762,064 times
Reputation: 17046
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I noticed that as well. I'm glad that you brought that up. The nation's businesses also employ parents, all of whom need reliable, safe care for their children in the years before formal education. If these businesses are as forward thinking as you would expect, you would see them pushing for universal preschool beginning at age 2, as in France, where the government decided that children would benefit from a structured educational experience run by the school system.

By contrast, in the U. S., parents rely on a patchwork of private providers whose budgets require poverty-level wages for their employees. I'm surprised that the American enterprise system has overlooked this most basic foundation for their workforce.
It's not the job of business per se to fund families who decide to have kids over other workers.

As a side note France spends a number equal to ~33% of its GDP on social welfare programs and the yield is a country that still suffers wringing social problems including childhood poverty, homelessness etc. To add some context in money terms according to the OECD at PPP 2021 Median Household Per Capita Income including transfers..........France $39,900......$62,300. Socialism is incredibly expensive.
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Old 11-10-2023, 10:41 AM
 
3,743 posts, read 5,808,721 times
Reputation: 5446
I would abolish the Dept. of Education . As a teacher for 39 years, I don't want the feds meddling in our state education policy. That should be up to local and state controls. The tax payers and parents are the ones paying the bills and they should have the final say. Common Core was just another way for the NEA and AF of T to control. Federalism does work and for once I have to agree with Justice Brandeis.
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Old 11-12-2023, 06:14 PM
 
7,360 posts, read 3,541,108 times
Reputation: 13987
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
So offer some.
It's your thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
My original post was pretty open.
Your original post was devoid of objective, mission or strategies, or tactics - instead jumping to who ought to participate (teachers, school administrators, boards of education, parents, students, college/university schools with teacher programs).

The answer of "who ought to participate" flows from objective, mission & strategies.

Don't feel bad, petaroi; The ability to think strategically is as difficult as it is rare. Most people wouldn't wouldn't recognize one if it bit them on the ankle; even fewer have the mental capacity to recognize good ones from bad ones. Just look at our current educational system. <mic drop>
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