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Old 11-12-2023, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,336 posts, read 23,916,283 times
Reputation: 32628

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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
It's your thread.



Your original post was devoid of objective, mission or strategies, or tactics - instead jumping to who ought to participate (teachers, school administrators, boards of education, parents, students, college/university schools with teacher programs).

The answer of "who ought to participate" flows from objective, mission & strategies.

Don't feel bad, petaroi; The ability to think strategically is as difficult as it is rare. Most people wouldn't wouldn't recognize one if it bit them on the ankle; even fewer have the mental capacity to recognize good ones from bad ones. Just look at our current educational system. <mic drop>
It was a starting point. Not a thesis. If you don't want to be a part of putting something together, then just move on.
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Old 11-12-2023, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,010 posts, read 7,386,197 times
Reputation: 9747
Although I gave or tried to give reputation points,
IMO, the topic has been talked and implemented to death for ages. Literally ages.

In any systems natural or imposed, there will be a "bell curve" or similar.
Good luck.
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Old 11-13-2023, 04:17 PM
 
21,749 posts, read 9,306,081 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wac_432 View Post
LOL, you're pretty much describing the origin of Common Core.

Study all you want, the most important factor in a student's success is how focused on education their parents are. More parents are becoming less involved and the level of education is declining in students of those parents.
Let me guess. Teacher?
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Old 11-18-2023, 09:01 AM
 
7,395 posts, read 3,576,896 times
Reputation: 14075
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
It was a starting point. Not a thesis. If you don't want to be a part of putting something together, then just move on.
Once again, what problem are you trying to solve???

I can imagine a problem statement flowing from, say, Randi Weingarten would be different from the problem statement flowing from parents of a student who aspires to become a physician, which in turn would be different from the problem statement articulated by the taxpaying public.
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Old 11-18-2023, 11:30 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,336 posts, read 23,916,283 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Once again, what problem are you trying to solve???

I can imagine a problem statement flowing from, say, Randi Weingarten would be different from the problem statement flowing from parents of a student who aspires to become a physician, which in turn would be different from the problem statement articulated by the taxpaying public.
You keep putting it back on me, personally.

I'm putting it back on the (mostly) right-of-aisle who continually harp on our public educational institutions. Again, if all you want to do is complain, and not participate in putting something together, I would suggest you move on to other threads.
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Old 11-18-2023, 01:17 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,070,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogarven View Post
I would abolish the Dept. of Education .
That's the first step.

Second step is to repeal or declare unconstitutional all federal laws pertaining to education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
How do you get kids to study when they don’t want to study?
You motivate them.

The hardest thing I ever had to do was try to motivate temporaries to meet or exceed their quotas.

I was project supervisor and we had a deadline. That deadline was set by a federal judge so I just can't say, "Hey, we can take another 3 months if we feel like."

Can't make threats. Worse thing a parent can do is make a threat and not carry it out because they lose all credibility because they child figures out they can do whatever they want whenever they feel like it because the parent is too weak and pathetic to do anything about it.

I learned how to motivate in the Army. Getting troops to walk through the valley of the shadow of death with a butter knife isn't the easiest thing to do. And being a cop helped, too.

You appeal to people on an individual level. Appeal to their pride, honor, sense of duty/loyalty or ego or whatever.

You just have to figure out what buttons make them go and then push those buttons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
How do you get parents to be more involved in their kid’s education?
What does that mean?

You want a parent who can't even write a complete sentence much less talk using complete sentences to help their child?

Not gonna happen. That's a fail. We have 2,500 years of documented fail if you intend to do that.

If you mean getting parents to take an interest in their child's education and maintain regular contact with the schools and teachers and paying attention to what's going on, then yeah, I'm all for that.
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Old 11-18-2023, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,336 posts, read 23,916,283 times
Reputation: 32628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
That's the first step.

Second step is to repeal or declare unconstitutional all federal laws pertaining to education.



You motivate them.

The hardest thing I ever had to do was try to motivate temporaries to meet or exceed their quotas.

I was project supervisor and we had a deadline. That deadline was set by a federal judge so I just can't say, "Hey, we can take another 3 months if we feel like."

Can't make threats. Worse thing a parent can do is make a threat and not carry it out because they lose all credibility because they child figures out they can do whatever they want whenever they feel like it because the parent is too weak and pathetic to do anything about it.

I learned how to motivate in the Army. Getting troops to walk through the valley of the shadow of death with a butter knife isn't the easiest thing to do. And being a cop helped, too.

You appeal to people on an individual level. Appeal to their pride, honor, sense of duty/loyalty or ego or whatever.

You just have to figure out what buttons make them go and then push those buttons.



What does that mean?

You want a parent who can't even write a complete sentence much less talk using complete sentences to help their child?

Not gonna happen. That's a fail. We have 2,500 years of documented fail if you intend to do that.

If you mean getting parents to take an interest in their child's education and maintain regular contact with the schools and teachers and paying attention to what's going on, then yeah, I'm all for that.
You don't get what the original post was calling for.
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Old 11-18-2023, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,070,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think there should be a national effort to seek a road forward...not dominated by any particular group of the above. And as part of the national effort, 50 state efforts.
That would be great if we lived in Denmark or Norway or Iceland or Japan, but we don't.

And the federal government is the main cause of the problem, so it should butt out completely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Which groups (different from those above) should be involved? I'll suggest (but feel free to add or refine):

teachers
school administrators
boards of education
parents
students
college/university schools with teacher programs
None of those.

All those groups are the problem and asking them to fix a problem they created is stupid.

Government can never solve anything. All it does is create more problems.

Government attempted to fix a problem by creating a problem and then attempted to fix that problem by creating a problem and then tried to fix that problem by creating another problem.

And the end result? The government took away your inalienable right to choose your own health plan coverage and gave it to your employer.

There was still a silver lining. You only had to pay health insurance premiums for 10 years and then you were done for the rest of your life and you got a big chunk o' money when you died.

But to add insult to injury, the government said, "No, you have to pay premiums every month until the day you die and when you die you get $0."

So, government is never the solution to anything.

Colleges? Government ruined colleges by eliminating them. No such thing as a college in the US.

There was a time in the US when there were bona fide teachers' colleges and teachers got 4 solid years of education.

Then along came Liberals and put an end to that so teachers only get 2 years of teaching instruction because they have to spend 2 years fulfilling liberal arts requirements.

Same with your engineering colleges. Instead of 4 solid years of engineering they only get 2 years and then y'all sit around wondering why the rest of the world is beating us up.

The 2 years that teachers do get is worthless.

We had a street person teach a class. He was a middle school teacher with a BA so that's why we called them that. For every class you teach, you get 1 credit hour. Teach 3 classes and you get 3 credit hours and then you can take a 3 credit hour graduate level course for "free."

The course catalog said the class was about incorporating reading material into the curriculum.

That means if you're teaching WW I which any competent teacher (an oxymoron) should be able to do in 3 class periods you have kids read or read excerpts from Johnny Got His Gun.

If you're teaching physics or earth science, maybe you have them read Ulugh Beg. Why? He was an Uzbek which is a Turkic group.

More than 1,000 years before Hipparchus is credited with discovering obliquity, Ulugh Beg got on his little horse and rode down to the observatory at Samerkind and made that discovery and then he wrote about it.

You probably wouldn't want students to read how he did it, although you could, but you would want them to read his comments about it and how he thought it impacted science and the grand scheme of things and his view of the world.

But this idiot thought the purpose of the class was to teach us how to teach students how to read.

He was unable to grasp the concept of "secondary education." It is not our job to teach kids how to read. That is the job of elementary education teachers and they need to start doing their freaking job because a kid in high school who cannot read is not going to learn anything.

Your laundry list of pathetics is only going to whine about money and money has no bearing on outcome.

You need a $1 Million budget to teach chemistry and physics.

I taught physics to kids who didn't even have a school. They had a lean-to that didn't have electricity or running water and I taught physics on a budget of exactly $0.

They dug a trough in the ground and used sticks to build a bridge and then they poured water into the trough and watched the water wash away their little "bridge."

And then they understood what happened to the bridge connecting their villages with the other villages and understood why.

The most expensive prestigious public school in India is $359/year and those kids graduate and go to a 4 year engineering college and take your jobs and you all can't figure out why.

Well, it's because they're actually being educated.

I had to waste an entire class period teaching the Declaration of Independence because students didn't know how to write an essay and didn't even know what any essay was.

The foreign students knew, but not the American students.

Even worse, they were dumb enough to believe something actually happened on July 4th because their history teachers are incompetent morons.

Our broken system let's people teach history even though they've never taken a history class outside of what is required in the liberal arts program and even that's questionable because The Political Achievements of Transvestite Lesbian Midgets in 16th Century France doesn't qualify as a history course.

Conspicuously absent from your laundry list are the only 2 groups that actually matter.

That would be the community and businesses since those are the 2 groups that have to deal with and clean up the mess that the public education system makes.

Yeah, the end-users. That's what's important.
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Old 11-18-2023, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,336 posts, read 23,916,283 times
Reputation: 32628
I wash my hands of it.
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Old 11-19-2023, 01:58 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,632 posts, read 57,651,190 times
Reputation: 46069
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I wash my hands of it.
Better said ...
Washed hands ... 40 yrs ago!

Keep sending the checks for doing such an excellent job of washing hands
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