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Old 11-07-2023, 06:57 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519

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In this forum we have a multitude of voices talking about education (feel free to add or refine categories):

status quo seekers
rightist tear it down
leftist tear it down


I think there should be a national effort to seek a road forward...not dominated by any particular group of the above. And as part of the national effort, 50 state efforts.

Which groups (different from those above) should be involved? I'll suggest (but feel free to add or refine):

teachers
school administrators
boards of education
parents
students
college/university schools with teacher programs


It would take time. But right now the nation is all scattered, and those with the loudest and most radical voices seem to think everyone agrees with them (and let's face it...this forum is NOT representative of the population).
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Old 11-07-2023, 10:51 PM
 
12,577 posts, read 8,805,520 times
Reputation: 34380
Okay, I agree with the need. However I thing the first three groups listed are just a different slice of all other groups and don't need to be listed separately so long as the groups chosen aren't stacked toward a particular solution.

Of the other groups:
Teachers: yes
School Administrators: yes
Boards of Education: No; they would be customers/users of the information in the construct given
Parents: yes
Students: yes
College/university schools with teacher programs: No; again, because they should be users of the information as providers to the other groups listed.

Other groups to include:
Representatives from the business community to provide perspective on what they need graduates to know.
Representatives from STEM professional societies to provide perspective on what their profession needs graduates to know.
Representatives from various trade and technical unions to provide perspective on what their trade needs graduates to know.

Other groups to exclude are the various teachers' unions, ETS and other large testing companies, and textbook/education publishers, because all these groups, like boards of education and education colleges, have a financial interest in steering the outcome to suit their needs ahead of the needs of the students.
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Old 11-08-2023, 10:42 AM
 
3,143 posts, read 2,646,848 times
Reputation: 11938
LOL, you're pretty much describing the origin of Common Core.

Study all you want, the most important factor in a student's success is how focused on education their parents are. More parents are becoming less involved and the level of education is declining in students of those parents.
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Old 11-08-2023, 06:20 PM
 
7,257 posts, read 3,479,848 times
Reputation: 13828
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
In this forum we have a multitude of voices talking about education (feel free to add or refine categories):

status quo seekers
rightist tear it down
leftist tear it down
Fascinating that you see the world in terms of status quo, right, left.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think there should be a national effort ...
The last thing we need to do is commission yet another national effort for something best managed at the local level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Which groups (different from those above) should be involved? I'll suggest (but feel free to add or refine):

teachers
school administrators
boards of education
parents
students
college/university schools with teacher programs
Very fascinating that in your worldview the private sector does not play an important role... no mention of the importance of the 33+ million businesses in the nation who employ graduates...
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Old 11-08-2023, 09:09 PM
 
4,350 posts, read 4,190,031 times
Reputation: 5776
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Fascinating that you see the world in terms of status quo, right, left.

The last thing we need to do is commission yet another national effort for something best managed at the local level.

Very fascinating that in your worldview the private sector does not play an important role... no mention of the importance of the 33+ million businesses in the nation who employ graduates...
I noticed that as well. I'm glad that you brought that up. The nation's businesses also employ parents, all of whom need reliable, safe care for their children in the years before formal education. If these businesses are as forward thinking as you would expect, you would see them pushing for universal preschool beginning at age 2, as in France, where the government decided that children would benefit from a structured educational experience run by the school system.

By contrast, in the U. S., parents rely on a patchwork of private providers whose budgets require poverty-level wages for their employees. I'm surprised that the American enterprise system has overlooked this most basic foundation for their workforce.
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Old 11-08-2023, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,119 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32519
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Fascinating that you see the world in terms of status quo, right, left.




The last thing we need to do is commission yet another national effort for something best managed at the local level.



Very fascinating that in your worldview the private sector does not play an important role... no mention of the importance of the 33+ million businesses in the nation who employ graduates...
1. There are many ways to look at the world. I'm not required to look at it the way you do. And, in terms of views about education at this point in time -- at least on this forum -- what I described seems pretty accurate.

2. One time traveling in the third world...well, almost third world...I was meeting with some school directors there and they were stunned that (at the time) we really didn't have a national education policy...that education was handled primarily by the states.

3. I sense that you don't like the concept of the united states of America in terms of American education, but considering how much the states do run education even today, how is it that you folks can be so critical of education and then advocate for more control by the states.

4. In terms of employers being a part of a comprehensive study of education...in my original post I welcomed other posters to add to my proposal. But, of course, I at least had a proposal rather than simply sit here and target posters who see things differently.
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Old 11-08-2023, 10:22 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,548 posts, read 57,460,499 times
Reputation: 45902
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Fascinating that you see the world in terms of status quo, right, left.




The last thing we need to do is commission yet another national effort for something best managed at the local level.



Very fascinating that in your worldview the private sector does not play an important role... no mention of the importance of the 33+ million businesses in the nation who employ graduates...
^^^^
Yeah... We (USA) really need the confusion and delay of a national study to further clarify the 'mystery' ROFLOAO.

Not like there is a lack of evidence or understanding.

Go hire the grads,

How's that working for your business, or our economy, or the USA Military?

It's no mystery for those doing the work
Teachers,
Bosses,
Recruiters,
Drill Sergeants,
Contractors
Small businesses
Continuing Ed teachers
College admission and guidance (and placement)

The plentiful data is available and accessible.

Or... Stimulate the economy and hire 50 grads / year. (Remember... You'll have to train them . Likely how to read, write, and do Arithmetic.

Good luck.

Let us know the outcome.
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Old 11-09-2023, 09:38 AM
 
7,257 posts, read 3,479,848 times
Reputation: 13828
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
1. There are many ways to look at the world.
Captain Obvious is in da house!

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm not required to look at it the way you do.
It is nonetheless illuminating and speaks to your worldview. The way a problem is phrased (or not articulated at all) dictates the solution space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
2. One time traveling in the third world...well, almost third world...I was meeting with some school directors there and they were stunned that (at the time) we really didn't have a national education policy...that education was handled primarily by the states.
It also is illuminating that you take your guidance from third world and almost third world countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
3. I sense that you don't like the concept of the united states of America in terms of American education, but considering how much the states do run education even today, how is it that you folks can be so critical of education and then advocate for more control by the states.
"You folks"? You're back to lumping "you folks" together? Why don't you just go ahead and talk about a Basket of Deplorables?

I sense you do not believe in Federalism or in The Republic (one would think that as an educator you would recall the Pledge of Allegiance: "...and to The Republic for which it stands...."

I sense you disagree with famed U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis when he praised Federalism as allowing States to experiment and make the best laws: "...a single courageous State may, if its citizens choose, serve as a laboratory; and try novel social and economic experiments without risk to the rest of the country."

Perhaps you lump Justice Brandeis in with "you folk", "people like you," and other Deplorables.
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
People like you ...

Last edited by moguldreamer; 11-09-2023 at 09:51 AM..
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Old 11-09-2023, 09:46 AM
 
7,257 posts, read 3,479,848 times
Reputation: 13828
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
In this forum we have a multitude of voices talking about education (feel free to add or refine categories):

status quo seekers
rightist tear it down
leftist tear it down


I think there should be a national effort to seek a road forward...not dominated by any particular group of the above. And as part of the national effort, 50 state efforts.

Which groups (different from those above) should be involved? I'll suggest (but feel free to add or refine):

teachers
school administrators
boards of education
parents
students
college/university schools with teacher programs


It would take time. But right now the nation is all scattered, and those with the loudest and most radical voices seem to think everyone agrees with them (and let's face it...this forum is NOT representative of the population).

First - before any effort - you need to define the problem. You need to define the objective and non-objectives. Defining the problem, the objectives, and non-objectives and measurement system is hard work.

It is remarkable and illuminating that an articulation of the problem to be solved is wholly missing. It speaks volumes.
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Old 11-09-2023, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,945 posts, read 7,319,127 times
Reputation: 9695
FYI, I gave everyone a +reputation point, regardless of my personal position.
[reputation point is where possible, a limitation of CD].
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