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Old 11-20-2023, 06:11 PM
 
19,776 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
First paragraph, I agree.

Bolded...perhaps. But if the right-of-center was in control of our schools systems, do we really think they wouldn't incorporate their brand of social engineering into our schools? To be honest, keeping things neutral is one of the challenges, as I learned from a very conservative college professor that I had; I thought I was taking a course on Public Educational Finance, but no, it turned out to be a course on Reagonomics...with no mention of schools and taught by a professor who had never worked in a school system.
I'd tend to agree. This in an area in which we need more diversity of opinion.

 
Old 11-20-2023, 06:19 PM
 
3,773 posts, read 5,322,770 times
Reputation: 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I was able to skim it. Per the article the opening thesis is AZ charter kids test below national averages but the article closes with AZ public school kids test worse than national averages too - I love how reporters save critical countervailing info. for the end. The story was long on implication but very short on hard detail. Like which kids tend to attend charters in AZ.

The story reads as if it were written by The NEA.
Yeah, I got the same conclusion after reading it. Poster is likely a shill for public schools so s/he overplayed the conclusions.

According to the report, Arizona's average charter school student performance on NAEP was below the average of 22 other states.

This means that the performance of AZ charter schools was below that of charter schools in other states. It doesn't say that charter schools in AZ performed below public schools in AZ.

In Arizona, however, the charter school student achievement ranking was closely aligned with the student achievement ranking when taking into account all public schools. ... "If you know how the public schools are doing in Arizona, you'll pretty much know how the charter schools are doing there," Peterson said. "Relative to other states, they don't look much different from the ranking of the public schools."

This means that there was little difference between charter school and public school performance in AZ. Hardly a condemnation of charter schools.

The report found nationwide disparities in Black and Hispanic charter school student performance as compared to the performance of white charter school students. ... In Arizona, the gap between the average test scores of Black and white charter school students is equal to about two and a half years of learning, according to the report. Still, compared to other states, Arizona had the second-lowest level of disparity for Black charter school student performance.

The gap between the average test scores of Hispanic and white charter school students in Arizona was even larger than the gap between Black and white charter school students.


Those disparities are likely due to cultural differences. But we can't go there. Oh no no no.
 
Old 11-20-2023, 06:26 PM
 
3,773 posts, read 5,322,770 times
Reputation: 6234
Quote:
Originally Posted by NORTY FLATZ View Post
Sorry, we're all products of the public education system!

Want to fix the schools? Get the social engineering OUT.

Maybe a "voucher" program to let the parents choose which school to enroll their spawn.

A little "competition" never hurt anyone/anything.

How can we lose? Well....

The rest of the (un)developed countries are teaching trig/calc & civics, and the USA schools are trying to

figure out which are girls and which are boys.

We don't knock this crap off soon, we're going to be a 3rd world country. (We may become this anyway, but it'll be a lot easier with "stupid people" as the majority population.)
Agree.

Funny how the Dems and their union thugs are anti-choice.
 
Old 11-20-2023, 06:29 PM
 
Location: WA
5,439 posts, read 7,728,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
One year when I was teaching earth science, and we got to the earth history unit (which includes evolution), I told students from the beginning that they could believe whatever they wanted, but for this class they needed to learn the science. At the end of the unit they had to write an essay, and I gave them 2 choices: "Why I believe in evolution" OR "Why I don't believe in evolution". As long as they wrote an essay -- didn't matter what they put into it -- they got an A. That year I had several parents who came in and literally said, "I don't want my [son/daughter] to think". Literally.
I've taught biology for 20 years in both Texas and Washington and cover evolution comprehensively. I've never once gotten any pushback from any parents or students about evolution. I keep expecting to but it never happens.

I teach them that science is not about beliefs (expect perhaps a general belief in the scientific process). Rather, I teach them that science is all about evaluating evidence and coming up with the best explanations (theories) that explain the available evidence. And that when new evidence becomes available (such as genome sequencing) you re-evaluate your theories in light of new evidence. I also teach them that the surest way to worldwide fame in science is to tear down the theories of your elders and propose new and better ones. That is exactly what Newton, Darwin, Einstein, Hawking, Mendel, Crick and Watson, and all other famous scientists did.

So a student telling me that they either believed in evolution or did not believe in evolution would receive criticism from me. Evolution is not something that you "believe" in one way or the other. Rather, we talk about Darwin's theory of natural selection and what evidence he collected to support his conclusions. We talk about the fossil record and what it means. We talk about modern molecular biology and gene sequencing has added to our knowledge and filled in gaps such as whether dogs were descended from wolves, coyotes, foxes, or some other canine. And we talk about the mechanisms for evolution such as mutations, natural selection, gene flow, speciation, and so forth. Students are expected to master all of those topics regardless of whatever beliefs they might have.

I also generally don't delve into human evolution which is really more paleoanthropology and not general biology. Rather I focus on plant and animal examples. Such as why sharks, dolphins, penguins, and seals all have similar fusiform shape (convergent evolution). Or how certain hummingbirds and orchids have co-evolved to benefit each other in a mutual fashion. Things like that. I've never seen human evolution examples come up, even on the AP Biology test. It is always questions about finches or giraffes or other random species, or specific questions about mechanisms of evolution and how it is evaluated such as making Hardy Weinberg Equilibrium calculations. Fundamentalists seem to mostly get their panties in a twist over the subject of human evolution. If you are talking about E.coli bacteria or stickleback fish or anole lizards on Caribbean islands they don't really have much to say.

Where I have gotten pushback from some parents in Texas was on the subject of climate change and global warming which is a major topic in AP Environmental Science and therefore, part of the required curriculum, even in Texas. I mostly just let them vent and blow off steam and then explain that it is a required part of the curriculum and something covered on the AP test. So something I'm obligated to teach whether they like it or not.
 
Old 11-20-2023, 06:54 PM
 
1,412 posts, read 1,082,116 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
You weren't looking.

1. The NEA funding Fairtest.org's war on standardized tests is an example.
2. Test in and private high schools, colleges, graduate and professional schools giving preference to lesser students over better students per admissions is another.
3. Schools limiting G&T, honors and tacking are further examples.
None of these are evidence of anti-merit indoctrination by public school teachers. One is at best evidence that SOME teachers would like to make admission reforms that could be seen as anti-merit (if we agree that the tests are meritocratic), the second has nothing to do with public schools or indoctrination, the third could be seen as an anti-merit policy but isn't indoctrination and would not have been implemented by teachers (I have also never seen or heard of this in my career).
 
Old 11-20-2023, 07:17 PM
 
19,776 posts, read 18,060,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by history nerd View Post
None of these are evidence of anti-merit indoctrination by public school teachers. One is at best evidence that SOME teachers would like to make admission reforms that could be seen as anti-merit (if we agree that the tests are meritocratic), the second has nothing to do with public schools or indoctrination, the third could be seen as an anti-merit policy but isn't indoctrination and would not have been implemented by teachers (I have also never seen or heard of this in my career).
Like I said if you aren't aware of these things you haven't been paying enough attention.

A teacher's union funding an anti-standardized testing effort is patently anti-merit.

Per number 2 there are a number of test in/test required public schools. Examples include Davidson Academy Nevada, NYC's "Specialized High Schools" Stuyvesant, Bronx HS of Science etc. and many others. There is a strong push from groups on the left including many teachers to do way with the SHSAT which has been the key determining admissions factor per these schools for many years.


Per 3 - and there are many examples of this - hopefully you are able to open the link.........if not I'll give you a run down.


https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/c...mathematicians.
 
Old 11-20-2023, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,769 posts, read 24,270,853 times
Reputation: 32910
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
You weren't looking.

1. The NEA funding Fairtest.org's war on standardized tests is an example.
2. Test in and private high schools, colleges, graduate and professional schools giving preference to lesser students over better students per admissions is another.
3. Schools limiting G&T, honors and tacking are further examples.
What do you mean by #3 in regard to GT?
 
Old 11-20-2023, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,769 posts, read 24,270,853 times
Reputation: 32910
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak View Post
Yeah, I got the same conclusion after reading it. Poster is likely a shill for public schools so s/he overplayed the conclusions.

According to the report, Arizona's average charter school student performance on NAEP was below the average of 22 other states.

This means that the performance of AZ charter schools was below that of charter schools in other states. It doesn't say that charter schools in AZ performed below public schools in AZ.

In Arizona, however, the charter school student achievement ranking was closely aligned with the student achievement ranking when taking into account all public schools. ... "If you know how the public schools are doing in Arizona, you'll pretty much know how the charter schools are doing there," Peterson said. "Relative to other states, they don't look much different from the ranking of the public schools."

This means that there was little difference between charter school and public school performance in AZ. Hardly a condemnation of charter schools.

The report found nationwide disparities in Black and Hispanic charter school student performance as compared to the performance of white charter school students. ... In Arizona, the gap between the average test scores of Black and white charter school students is equal to about two and a half years of learning, according to the report. Still, compared to other states, Arizona had the second-lowest level of disparity for Black charter school student performance.

The gap between the average test scores of Hispanic and white charter school students in Arizona was even larger than the gap between Black and white charter school students.


Those disparities are likely due to cultural differences. But we can't go there. Oh no no no.
Where -- EXACTLY -- did I condemn anything?
 
Old 11-20-2023, 08:22 PM
 
19,776 posts, read 18,060,308 times
Reputation: 17262
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
What do you mean by #3 in regard to GT?
Sorry, offering fewer GT classes.
 
Old 11-20-2023, 08:25 PM
 
1,412 posts, read 1,082,116 times
Reputation: 2953
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Like I said if you aren't aware of these things you haven't been paying enough attention.

A teacher's union funding an anti-standardized testing effort is patently anti-merit.

Per number 2 there are a number of test in/test required public schools. Examples include Davidson Academy Nevada, NYC's "Specialized High Schools" Stuyvesant, Bronx HS of Science etc. and many others. There is a strong push from groups on the left including many teachers to do way with the SHSAT which has been the key determining admissions factor per these schools for many years.


Per 3 - and there are many examples of this - hopefully you are able to open the link.........if not I'll give you a run down.


https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/c...mathematicians.
So we are about to get into a philosophical discussion about "what is merit, how should it be measured, and how is it best rewarded" that's a discussion worth having but it's off topic and I'm not really interested in having it here. You didn't posit that teachers support anti-merit policy's but that they were indoctrinating the youth. I hope you can see how those are different claims.
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