Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:32 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 4335

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
I think that depends on who you ask. Is it not the pervasive thought amongst many STEM majors that unless you major in something related to math and science, that it's not worth much out in the "real world"? I mean, I've lost count on how many brow-beating lectures I've read online about how any liberal arts or "soft" science majors are rent seeking or broke baristas or retail workers despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.
Yes, but, again, it's not all or nothing, and there are other alternatives between art history vs one major forced by parents.

Quote:
One of the things that has routinely turned me away from STEM is the constant gate keeping and sneering from many of those who are already in the field. Let's face it, all fields and professions have jerks like this. But STEM has some of the worst culprits of the "I'm very smart and I'm going to let everyone know it" attitudes. My wife taught a couple STEM subjects, and based on accounts of her colleagues, it seems like some of the common difficult traits of those she worked with were derived from the hubris and arrogance of those individuals.

Maybe it's the personalities drawn to it that turns other people away from it.
That is another very good point, and perhaps why STEM college professors are so focused on weeding students out, and why STEM people on this forum seem to support that practice. And it may also explain why women are disproportionately weeded out despite blatant attempts to favor them. And the blatant favoritism toward women may be turning away men while failing to attract women. I also suspect that many K-12 STEM teachers were people who were weeded out of STEM careers and used teaching as a Plan B.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:34 PM
 
6,922 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
It really depends on the area they are going into. I would expect the software developers, including gaming people to end up being replaced by AI, in fact the AI developers today help to eliminate their own jobs. Civil, structural, electrical and aeronautical engineers will always be needed, though less in times of depression when building stops, as in 2008. Probably the best area to get into for the future is medical research, but in the short term at least the biggest shortages are in the medical industry, doctors and nurses, both well paid. I hear more and more stories lately (including my wife) of waiting 5 months for a routine appointment, or being sent to another location for urgent imaging because they are booked up for weeks. That may settle down after the older people die off, but before long the millennials, now already the largest generation in population will become elderly (15-20 years).
And, if maybe we were less focused on weeding people out, we could have more doctors, so that people would not be waiting 5 months or more for an appointment, and maybe we'd have doctors who actually understand something beyond what their textbook said.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:35 PM
 
4,352 posts, read 4,190,941 times
Reputation: 5776
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
I think that depends on who you ask. Is it not the pervasive thought amongst many STEM majors that unless you major in something related to math and science, that it's not worth much out in the "real world"? I mean, I've lost count on how many brow-beating lectures I've read online about how any liberal arts or "soft" science majors are rent seeking or broke baristas or retail workers despite the obvious evidence to the contrary.

One of the things that has routinely turned me away from STEM is the constant gate keeping and sneering from many of those who are already in the field. Let's face it, all fields and professions have jerks like this. But STEM has some of the worst culprits of the "I'm very smart and I'm going to let everyone know it" attitudes. My wife taught a couple STEM subjects, and based on accounts of her colleagues, it seems like some of the common difficult traits of those she worked with were derived from the hubris and arrogance of those individuals.

Maybe it's the personalities drawn to it that turns other people away from it.
One of the ironies is that so many of those tech guys who grew up being among the smartest people in their schools finally get into a field where they are no longer the smartest guy in the room. I love that feeling, but some people feel a sense of inferiority that can come out with the attitude that you mention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
The dynamics of the workforce are changing. The work environment that a younger Gen-Zer will enter is likely going to look at lot different than what it looked like for me (an older Millennial) and anything that any Boomer or Xer could ever imagine. Flex schedules, remote work, hybrid scheduling, etc. will be far more prevalent in 10-15 years IMO. A 9-5 is a completely arbitrary, meaningless idea established by FLSA, when before that, it wasn't uncommon for people to be working 60+ hours per week. It is especially more meaningless these days as most knowledge-based jobs are classified as exempt.

I bet whatever the old time generation that lived during that time bleeped and moaned about Boomers not understanding good work etiquette then, too.
I'm now teaching young adults in a workforce development program and I see many reasons why some of them will struggle to be successful employees. Although they are learning the tech skills, the workplace skills are seriously lacking. I've had to point out several times that when employees have a work-from-home option, the option is always at the will of the employer.

We have had to shut down the online option, as most of them were staying home several days a week, and we are now beginning a new, highly intensive part of the training. It's one thing when we were virtual because of a Covid exposure; it's another thing entirely to stay home just because you feel like it. That is not a prerogative that an entry-level employee has in most positions. Most of them were late again yesterday, after having last week off, and they were warned that we would begin promptly today, which we did. Most everyone was still late, but we were full into instruction when they arrived, today's lesson was really hard, and I'm hoping that everyone will not want a repeat of trying to get caught up on something that you didn't see being demonstrated.

Work etiquette is always evolving, but basic respect for other people, their time, their feelings, and their professional contributions remains the foundation of good manners at work. One issue that I see among the young people that I work with is that they aren't intentionally rude. It's more like they are color blind and they don't notice what is going on around them so they miss being aware of the culture of the people with whom they work and what its standards are. Workplace etiquette and professional language are two of the areas where many young (and not-so-young) employees need explicit training.

On a slightly unrelated note, the most intriguing thing that I learned this week is that eye contact stimulates oxytocin production. I knew that the love hormone was produced when cuddling or stroking a pet, but the revelation that eye contact is a factor gave me a different perspective on teaching. I have always explicitly taught about eye contact as a part of communication. To learn that there is a biological function involved was quite interesting. I can see where knowing that can influence work behavior and relationships in a positive way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:40 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,665 posts, read 17,264,873 times
Reputation: 34158
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
And, if maybe we were less focused on weeding people out, we could have more doctors, so that people would not be waiting 5 months or more for an appointment, and maybe we'd have doctors who actually understand something beyond what their textbook said.
That is a different problem altogether controlled by Congress.
Congress controls The number of medical residencies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:54 PM
 
Location: In your head
1,014 posts, read 513,738 times
Reputation: 1482
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Yes, but, again, it's not all or nothing, and there are other alternatives between art history vs one major forced by parents.
Yes, I know that. You know that. But clearly some people struggle with this notion. I mean, there is literally a post of an image in this thread claiming that a degree in XYZ liberal arts field is destined for homelessness and destitution. This isn't the reality that I know. I know a lot of liberal arts majors and they have very successful corporate careers. One of the highest earners I know personally is an anthropology major (not in the field of anthropology, mind you).

STEM attracts a lot of rigid minded people because STEM is inherently a rules-oriented collection of fields (if this, then that, repeat). It follows that many of them think that a degree in English Lit can only lead to a job in English Lit (which there aren't that many of, and not many that pay very well at that). So, they reach the incorrect conclusion that English Lit majors must inherently be broke, homeless, unemployed, or all of the above because many good paying jobs don't exist in the field of English Lit. Of the English majors I know, some are teachers, but many others work in areas like marketing, insurance, law, communications, etc. None are unemployed OR broke OR homeless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That is another very good point, and perhaps why STEM college professors are so focused on weeding students out, and why STEM people on this forum seem to support that practice. And it may also explain why women are disproportionately weeded out despite blatant attempts to favor them. And the blatant favoritism toward women may be turning away men while failing to attract women. I also suspect that many K-12 STEM teachers were people who were weeded out of STEM careers and used teaching as a Plan B.
Yeah, this is certainly a possibility, too. None of these factors seemingly help the case for STEM. But I don't necessarily agree with the premise that there aren't enough people interested in STEM either. That concept sounds like the ramblings of someone who's been out of the loop for quite awhile.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 04:59 PM
 
17,472 posts, read 17,286,872 times
Reputation: 25448
It seems many teachers and counselors have tunnel vision for university education only. It’s as if they don’t know about nor respect any of the other options available. Not every high school student is right for university education. For some students things like military, police, firefighters, trade school, or community college is perfectly fine. I went into the Navy and worked in the engine room of steam driven ships which includes distilling plant, electric generator, and various pumps and related equipment. I now work at a hospital boiler room for 24 years now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 05:06 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
The dynamics of the workforce are changing. The work environment that a younger Gen-Zer will enter is likely going to look at lot different than what it looked like for me (an older Millennial) and anything that any Boomer or Xer could ever imagine. Flex schedules, remote work, hybrid scheduling, etc. will be far more prevalent in 10-15 years IMO. A 9-5 is a completely arbitrary, meaningless idea established by FLSA, when before that, it wasn't uncommon for people to be working 60+ hours per week. It is especially more meaningless these days as most knowledge-based jobs are classified as exempt.
You do know, don't you, that half of Boomers are still in the workforce and many of them are working flex schedules, remote work, hybrid scheduling, et cetera?

By "9-5" I mean "put in the hours we pay for, and do the work during those hours."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 05:07 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
So are Boomers...and Xers...and Millennials. Go out to any restaurant or bar or public outing and you'll see all ages buried in their screens.
What does that prove in the context of work? They're on their own time at the restaurants, bars, and public outings, not on company time.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 05:09 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
It really depends on the area they are going into. I would expect the software developers, including gaming people to end up being replaced by AI, in fact the AI developers today help to eliminate their own jobs. Civil, structural, electrical and aeronautical engineers will always be needed, though less in times of depression when building stops, as in 2008. Probably the best area to get into for the future is medical research, but in the short term at least the biggest shortages are in the medical industry, doctors and nurses, both well paid. I hear more and more stories lately (including my wife) of waiting 5 months for a routine appointment, or being sent to another location for urgent imaging because they are booked up for weeks. That may settle down after the older people die off, but before long the millennials, now already the largest generation in population will become elderly (15-20 years).
The Millennial generation may also be sicker earlier from stress and obesity issues.

The 70s were a lot more fun than the early 2000s.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 05:14 PM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,563,896 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post

STEM attracts a lot of rigid minded people because STEM is inherently a rules-oriented collection of fields (if this, then that, repeat). It follows that many of them think that a degree in English Lit can only lead to a job in English Lit (which there aren't that many of, and not many that pay very well at that). So, they reach the incorrect conclusion that English Lit majors must inherently be broke, homeless, unemployed, or all of the above because many good paying jobs don't exist in the field of English Lit. Of the English majors I know, some are teachers, but many others work in areas like marketing, insurance, law, communications, etc. None are unemployed OR broke OR homeless.
Making the expense of a college education pay off requires a quite high level of intelligence.

A person either displays that intelligence at the front end by going into a major that promises a lucrative career, or a person displays that intelligence at the back end by parlaying a less lucrative major into a lucrative career.

If the person is not really that bright...they wind up with a big college debt and a career that's not worth it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top