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Old 11-28-2023, 04:19 PM
 
28,678 posts, read 18,801,179 times
Reputation: 30998

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Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
It seems many teachers and counselors have tunnel vision for university education only. It’s as if they don’t know about nor respect any of the other options available. Not every high school student is right for university education. For some students things like military, police, firefighters, trade school, or community college is perfectly fine. I went into the Navy and worked in the engine room of steam driven ships which includes distilling plant, electric generator, and various pumps and related equipment. I now work at a hospital boiler room for 24 years now.
Most students are not right for a university education. And, in fact, most high students never get a bachelor's degree.

I'd argue that those who get degrees and aren't able to parlay them into vocations or professions that easily pay off their college debts were ipso facto not right for a university education.

But for sure, it's a crime that, knowing most of their students will not get a bachelor's degree, schools do not do more earlier to make non-degree opportunities more visible and possible. High school counselors will look a clearly unprepared high school senior dead in the eye and advise them to get a college degree.
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Old 11-28-2023, 04:23 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,078 posts, read 7,519,082 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
It seems many teachers and counselors have tunnel vision for university education only. It’s as if they don’t know about nor respect any of the other options available. Not every high school student is right for university education. For some students things like military, police, firefighters, trade school, or community college is perfectly fine. I went into the Navy and worked in the engine room of steam driven ships which includes distilling plant, electric generator, and various pumps and related equipment. I now work at a hospital boiler room for 24 years now.

Are Navy stationary engineers trained/licensed in turbine and ICE engines too?
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Old 11-28-2023, 04:56 PM
 
17,626 posts, read 17,690,196 times
Reputation: 25700
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
Are Navy stationary engineers trained/licensed in turbine and ICE engines too?
There is no license to operate such equipment in a ship, but the training received can easily be used towards such licensing. Some ship’s boilers are 600 to 1200 psi superheated steam. Many have diesel emergency generators. One Navy rating (job title) can encompass multiple civilian jobs. Some crew members are able to use Navy courses towards a university degree and continue course le on the ship or attend in person classes while on shore duty. Some don’t stick with the job they learned in the Navy and move onto other jobs in the civilian job market. Having worked 18 hour work days for 7 days straight for months at a time can contribute to a good work ethic.
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Old 11-28-2023, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,078 posts, read 7,519,082 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
There is no license to operate such equipment in a ship, but the training received can easily be used towards such licensing. Some ship’s boilers are 600 to 1200 psi superheated steam. Many have diesel emergency generators. One Navy rating (job title) can encompass multiple civilian jobs. Some crew members are able to use Navy courses towards a university degree and continue course le on the ship or attend in person classes while on shore duty. Some don’t stick with the job they learned in the Navy and move onto other jobs in the civilian job market. Having worked 18 hour work days for 7 days straight for months at a time can contribute to a good work ethic.

My question is does the rating get transferred to civilian/insurance certificate? And does a Navy stationary also qualify in turbine and ICE power equipment?
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Old 11-28-2023, 05:54 PM
 
4,386 posts, read 4,239,114 times
Reputation: 5875
Quote:
Originally Posted by victimofGM View Post
It seems many teachers and counselors have tunnel vision for university education only. It’s as if they don’t know about nor respect any of the other options available. Not every high school student is right for university education. For some students things like military, police, firefighters, trade school, or community college is perfectly fine. I went into the Navy and worked in the engine room of steam driven ships which includes distilling plant, electric generator, and various pumps and related equipment. I now work at a hospital boiler room for 24 years now.
You're absolutely right about this. And what's worse is that they don't really ask the students themselves what they want.

As part of my first-day-of-class routine, I would set the students to copying a copious amount of notes so that I could that the time to introduce myself to each student and among other things, ask them what they might have thought about doing after high school. (I intentionally worded it that way because so many of our students never made it to graduation, just like everyone else in their families.) It was a way to begin to try to help them realize their aspirations or to realize that they could have them.

One student about whom I could write a chapter, thought she would trip me up. "A stripper," she said with a straight face. My reply was that some young women were able to pay for their college degrees by exploiting men in this field. It gave us each insight into each other and laid the foundation for a relationship that lasted many turbulent years, ending with her coming to visit me in her Marine uniform. I reminded her then of our first meeting and she smiled.

Young people need people who are invested in helping them get from the lives that they have to the lives that they aspire to lead. Most have no idea of what the world holds available for them if they just knew about their options. Some parents are great at this, but others range from over-invested bulldozer parents to completely unengaged biological units, but all schools should have counselors assigned to the students, not to the grade levels, or whatever, in order to truly get to know a young student to guide him or her through their school years to their adult lives. Instead, in my experience, it is the counseling staff who do all the ubiquitous testing, retesting, accountability for testing, training for testing, and did I mention security for testing? What a thankless job.

We need to focus on the students as individuals and not as data points on reading, math, and subject area assessments. Right now schools are sending students the message that all they matter is how their data adds up, and they are showing us how they feel about that.
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:00 PM
 
12,850 posts, read 9,064,235 times
Reputation: 34940
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Most students are not right for a university education. And, in fact, most high students never get a bachelor's degree.

I'd argue that those who get degrees and aren't able to parlay them into vocations or professions that easily pay off their college debts were ipso facto not right for a university education.

But for sure, it's a crime that, knowing most of their students will not get a bachelor's degree, schools do not do more earlier to make non-degree opportunities more visible and possible. High school counselors will look a clearly unprepared high school senior dead in the eye and advise them to get a college degree.
Every few pages this point comes up, which is our middle school and high school system is not preparing students for what comes next, be it college or technical education. Do we, as a country, even acknowledge the problem and what do we do to fix it?
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:14 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,349 posts, read 13,951,345 times
Reputation: 18273
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
I think maybe back in the day, it was easier to get your foot in the door and work tadjacent to a field that you might be interested in even if you don't know it at the time. Maybe you weren't "the thing" you wanted to eventually be, but you could work beside them and assist them in their work.

For instance, after my first job as a dishwasher, I got into more administrative work as opposed to typical retail and food & bev work that most high schoolers fall into. A lot of this was due to going the technical pathway I pursued as opposed to the AP pathway that some of my other college-bound peers followed. Through the tech school I went to (during high school), the program helped find me a job as an admin asst. at a very small, family-owned business looking for some additional help around the front office. In that role, I worked with our HR manager, CFO, accountant, ops managers, etc. That later led to a role at their sister company as an accounting assistant. These roles gave me valuable work experience after I graduated from college, which I think gave me a leg up compared to many other fresh grads.

I don't know how possible it is to get these opportunities today, because modern hiring seems so incestuous at some of the smaller places and nearly impossible at the big corps unless you know someone who knows someone. A lot of our interns wind up being sons or daughters of executives and directors. Stringent hiring practices of today may make it increasingly more difficult to do these little exploration projects to "find yourself" IMO.

I'll add that expecting to know what you want to do at 15-20 years old, especially if you're coming from a low income, blue collar family, is going to be incredibly difficult for anyone (though not impossible). All my early career dreams were fantasies with very little groundwork in place to achieve them. Since we were low income, this also meant we didn't go to the best schools. Not going to the best primary and secondary schools vastly limits your exposure to the world beyond low income career paths. I'm also in a field today that didn't exist when I was in high school, so how much of it will really be relevant unless they go into some traditional career like veterinarian, teacher, or accountant.
Exactly. Anyone under the age of 60 who worked their way up is highly out of the ordinary. Like when McDonald's tries to say some owners started as a crew member. Sure they did. In Daddy's store.

[quote=mitsguy2001;66124286]That may be true, but there is a huge difference between majoring in art history vs being forced into one single major that the student isn't interested in.
Not what I'm getting at.



Yes, but your parents' income was likely included in the financial aid calculation, so you likely paid more than your fair share.
Probably. I had plenty of debt, that's for sure.



The cost of tuition makes that impossible for most people these days.
And books, fees, and room and board (because in rural states commuting if often unrealistic). Tuition is only a small part of the cost.


Again, it's not all or nothing. Probably best not to major in art history, but that also doesn't mean that there is only one major that leads to any money.
Who is saying that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
So are Boomers...and Xers...and Millennials. Go out to any restaurant or bar or public outing and you'll see all ages buried in their screens.
Absolutely!
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:14 PM
 
Location: In your head
1,075 posts, read 557,154 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You do know, don't you, that half of Boomers are still in the workforce and many of them are working flex schedules, remote work, hybrid scheduling, et cetera?

By "9-5" I mean "put in the hours we pay for, and do the work during those hours."
Unless you're hiring sprocket tighteners and widget producers, then I don't really follow. As I have almost entirely worked knowledge based jobs for my entire post-college career, it is not uncommon to observe people "step away" from work for some time fiddling on their phone, browsing non-work websites, etc. I sit by a late 30 something manager of compliance engineers and she is frequently on websites like Amazon, Facebook, or otherwise. I don't ever bat an eye over it myself; she is highly respected in the department so it must be working out.

However, if one has an issue with employees incessantly using their phones and consistently not meeting deadlines, then that is a manager problem and a hiring problem. But I suspect, as with a lot of these posts ranting about this and that generation, a lot of this is hyperbolic and exaggerated for effect.
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:19 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,349 posts, read 13,951,345 times
Reputation: 18273
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
I think maybe back in the day, it was easier to get your foot in the door and work adjacent to a field that you might be interested in even if you don't know it at the time. Maybe you weren't "the thing" you wanted to eventually be, but you could work beside them and assist them in their work.

For instance, after my first job as a dishwasher, I got into more administrative work as opposed to typical retail and food & bev work that most high schoolers fall into. A lot of this was due to going the technical pathway I pursued as opposed to the AP pathway that some of my other college-bound peers followed. Through the tech school I went to (during high school), the program helped find me a job as an admin asst. at a very small, family-owned business looking for some additional help around the front office. In that role, I worked with our HR manager, CFO, accountant, ops managers, etc. That later led to a role at their sister company as an accounting assistant. These roles gave me valuable work experience after I graduated from college, which I think gave me a leg up compared to many other fresh grads.

I don't know how possible it is to get these opportunities today, because modern hiring seems so incestuous at some of the smaller places and nearly impossible at the big corps unless you know someone who knows someone. A lot of our interns wind up being sons or daughters of executives and directors. Stringent hiring practices of today may make it increasingly more difficult to do these little exploration projects to "find yourself" IMO.

I'll add that expecting to know what you want to do at 15-20 years old, especially if you're coming from a low income, blue collar family, is going to be incredibly difficult for anyone (though not impossible). All my early career dreams were fantasies with very little groundwork in place to achieve them. Since we were low income, this also meant we didn't go to the best schools. Not going to the best primary and secondary schools vastly limits your exposure to the world beyond low income career paths. I'm also in a field today that didn't exist when I was in high school, so how much of it will really be relevant unless they go into some traditional career like veterinarian, teacher, or accountant.
Exactly. Anyone under the age of 60 who worked their way up is highly out of the ordinary. Like when McDonald's tries to say some owners started as a crew member. Sure they did. In Daddy's store.

[quote=mitsguy2001;66124286]That may be true, but there is a huge difference between majoring in art history vs being forced into one single major that the student isn't interested in.
Not what I'm getting at.



Yes, but your parents' income was likely included in the financial aid calculation, so you likely paid more than your fair share.
Probably. I had plenty of debt, that's for sure.



The cost of tuition makes that impossible for most people these days.
And books, fees, and room and board (because in rural states commuting if often unrealistic).


Again, it's not all or nothing. Probably best not to major in art history, but that also doesn't mean that there is only one major that leads to any money.
Who is saying that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
So are Boomers...and Xers...and Millennials. Go out to any restaurant or bar or public outing and you'll see all ages buried in their screens.
Absolutely!
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:21 PM
 
19,804 posts, read 18,099,591 times
Reputation: 17290
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
Yes, I know that. You know that. But clearly some people struggle with this notion. I mean, there is literally a post of an image in this thread claiming that a degree in XYZ liberal arts field is destined for homelessness and destitution. This isn't the reality that I know. I know a lot of liberal arts majors and they have very successful corporate careers. One of the highest earners I know personally is an anthropology major (not in the field of anthropology, mind you).

STEM attracts a lot of rigid minded people because STEM is inherently a rules-oriented collection of fields (if this, then that, repeat). It follows that many of them think that a degree in English Lit can only lead to a job in English Lit (which there aren't that many of, and not many that pay very well at that). So, they reach the incorrect conclusion that English Lit majors must inherently be broke, homeless, unemployed, or all of the above because many good paying jobs don't exist in the field of English Lit. Of the English majors I know, some are teachers, but many others work in areas like marketing, insurance, law, communications, etc. None are unemployed OR broke OR homeless.



Yeah, this is certainly a possibility, too. None of these factors seemingly help the case for STEM. But I don't necessarily agree with the premise that there aren't enough people interested in STEM either. That concept sounds like the ramblings of someone who's been out of the loop for quite awhile.
1. The image was intentionally hyperbolic.

2. Everyone in my nuclear family + our daughter in law is in STEM, none are rigid minded.

2.1. I've heard literally no one seriously claim that English Lit. majors en masse are broke, homeless and unemployed. I flat out know by reading high confidence data that most STEM types out-earn, and significantly so, most soft science types.

3. I'm not sure if your last paragraph is a joke/shock value or what.........a quick dive into the area more or less proves that we are desperately short of advanced degree holders across a range of STEM areas and there are relative oversupplies in academia and shortages in .gov and the private sectors. And these shortages where they appear will get worse over the next 10 or so years.
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