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Old 11-29-2023, 08:05 PM
 
28,664 posts, read 18,771,597 times
Reputation: 30939

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
One thing that is often overlooked in the push to get more students into STEM is that many people simply don't have the aptitude to succeed in a STEM career. Virtually every one of these careers requires knowledge of advanced mathematics. I am speaking of competently understanding calculus level math. IMO, very few students have the ability to enter college doing that level of math. I think you can try to blame the school system for not teaching math on that level. However, more likely the problem is simply that there aren't that many people out there who are capable of doing it. Maybe when it comes down to it only about 5% of high school graduates are "cut out" to succeed in these fields. I think it might make more sense to identify these limited few students rather than telling the entire student body they need to pursue a STEM career.
I've been saying that. Pushing it on everyone, and then watering down preparatory courses to increase student "success" both tend to make it less inviting for those who would truly excel in it.
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:28 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Not that many, though. We need a lot more plumbers.
Then why aren't you one? Didn't care enough about the good of the country?
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:29 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Not that many, though. We need a lot more plumbers.
Really? I've been working with 2 plumbers at my house lately...both are quite young. In their 20s.
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:34 PM
 
28,664 posts, read 18,771,597 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Then why aren't you one? Didn't care enough about the good of the country?
I do most of my own plumbing. Also all of my electrical work and carpentry. Also, all of my home networking and computer building, most of my auto repair, most of the landscaping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Really? I've been working with 2 plumbers at my house lately...both are quite young. In their 20s.
I didn't say there were no plumbers...and it's likely they've got plumbers in their families, not as something encouraged by a high school counselor.
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,770 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I do most of my own plumbing. Also all of my electrical work and carpentry. Also, all of my home networking and computer building, most of my auto repair, most of the landscaping.



I didn't say there were no plumbers...and it's likely they've got plumbers in their families, not as something encouraged by a high school counselor.
You talked about the need for people to do what was good for the country. Are you really that naive when many people in this thread seem to think that the only good profession is one that is lucrative.
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Old 11-29-2023, 09:40 PM
 
7,756 posts, read 3,791,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That photo that you attached is completely unrealistic! The vast majorities of science majors do not start their own tech company.
I guess you missed the idea of inspiration.
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Old 11-29-2023, 09:41 PM
 
7,756 posts, read 3,791,421 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Most STEM people are expected to be managers, even though most STEM people don’t like management and are lousy managers.
Generalize much?
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Old 11-29-2023, 10:22 PM
 
Location: Earth
985 posts, read 540,012 times
Reputation: 2374
People avoid going into science and engineering because it's hard, it takes diligence and mental stamina. It has nothing to do with the American education system.

Also, only a small percentage of the population finds that kind of thing exciting and interesting. And to be able to withstand the rigor of a science or engineering degree you have to be excited about what you're learning.
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Old 11-29-2023, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,062 posts, read 7,500,158 times
Reputation: 9788
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS414 View Post
People avoid going into science and engineering because it's hard, it takes diligence and mental stamina. It has nothing to do with the American education system.

Also, only a small percentage of the population finds that kind of thing exciting and interesting. And to be able to withstand the rigor of a science or engineering degree you have to be excited about what you're learning.
this also is a good explanation.
It's a numbers game.
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Old 11-30-2023, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,511 posts, read 2,660,480 times
Reputation: 13004
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohio_peasant View Post
In other words, if you have a deep, fundamental understanding of linear algebra, differential equations, real and complex analysis, topology and abstract algebra (sorry, I'm getting carried away), then you can rapidly learn any of the aforementioned 6 bulleted items quickly and effectively, on the job.
Hear, hear!

Too many people think that university education in computer science, or even traditional engineering subjects, is just learning which buttons to push on today's favorite software. Wrong!

The people who just learn which buttons to push on today's favorite software - THOSE are the ones that the old saw about "the half life of an engineer is only X years and everything you learn will soon be obsolete" applies to. REAL engineers and scientists learn the fundamentals, the bases for their field. In my case, mechanical engineering, the mechanics of solid and deformable bodies, the principles of thermodynamics, the fundamentals of fluid mechanics, that sort of stuff, NO, it's not "soon obsolete". A beam subjected to a transverse load deflects exactly as much in 2023 as it did in 1923.

The button pushers, we used to deride as "plug and chug engineers" - the kind where they can't do anything unless someone else sets up the entire task for them. In a huge organization there can be a place for these people - for example, consider the stress analysis department at Boeing where they've got dozens of tube-heads who just run stress analyses of parts, over and over, according to well defined protocols that were worked out long ago by actual engineers and are all there in the giant binder on the desk. They may call themselves "engineers" but unless they're just using that position to gain some basic experience and move on, they're not.

Back when I was a hiring manager of engineers, I would present candidates with a couple simple tests, for example: 1) Given a simple problem in kinematics, does the candidate start out by making a free body diagram and attempting to sum the forces and moments to zero? 2) Shown a S-N curve (cycles of stress to failure, vs. intensity of stress) does the mechanical engineer recognize what it is and what it's used for?

You'd be surprised how many people with purported mechanical engineering degrees completely failed simple tests like this. They didn't go further in the interview process.

Last edited by rabbit33; 11-30-2023 at 06:33 AM..
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