Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-30-2023, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,506 posts, read 2,651,635 times
Reputation: 12990

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...And to me the most important thing about encouraging STEM is to NOT discourage before the interest even starts.
It's not even active discouragement. Sometimes it's just passively letting students make bad decisions.

We have some posters here who suggest that for normal college-bound students it's OK to drop math and science early - like in 9th or 10th grade. Well, if you stop math instruction at algebra, you're at least two years behind when your freshman year of college rolls round, years that are VERY DIFFICULT to make up, if you DO decide to pursue a technical career. Without the calculus, having it at your fingertips and mastered, you're limited at best to "technology" degrees (MET, for example, rather than ME) which just skim over the top of the subjects.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-30-2023, 06:29 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,506 posts, read 2,651,635 times
Reputation: 12990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Since the law was passed in 1965 that gave student loans government backing, there's been too much money to be made.
Yes, that's a big factor too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 06:32 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,506 posts, read 2,651,635 times
Reputation: 12990
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS414 View Post
...
Also, only a small percentage of the population finds that kind of thing exciting and interesting.....
Well, it doesn't help that engineers and scientists are universally ridiculed and portrayed in all forms of media as out-of-touch autistic jerks with zero social skills, no ability to converse on any subject other than their narrow field of interest, and possessing less than zero sex appeal.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 06:36 AM
 
17,597 posts, read 17,629,777 times
Reputation: 25655
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Well, it doesn't help that engineers and scientists are universally ridiculed and portrayed in all forms of media as out-of-touch autistic jerks with zero social skills, no ability to converse on any subject other than their narrow field of interest, and possessing less than zero sex appeal.
https://www.npr.org/2014/09/07/34579...to-action-star
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Grevioux
Two exceptions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 06:40 AM
 
19,768 posts, read 18,055,300 times
Reputation: 17252
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS414 View Post
People avoid going into science and engineering because it's hard, it takes diligence and mental stamina. It has nothing to do with the American education system.

Also, only a small percentage of the population finds that kind of thing exciting and interesting. And to be able to withstand the rigor of a science or engineering degree you have to be excited about what you're learning.
No per your thesis, although you make several good points. If, the "American Educational System" in the broadest sense (schooling/rigor/expectations/family involvement) wasn't a strong factor we wouldn't see so many more STEM degree holders, nominally and proportionally, from India and China and proportionally more from several old Eastern Bloc countries.


Further, US kid's dismal math and science performance across bits like the PISA tests goes against your point.


We are number one by far and away in nominal per kid K-12 spending and 2-4 proportionally in the first world and our kids are outside the top 20 in math and science performance............that's all about the American Educational System.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 07:01 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,545 posts, read 28,630,498 times
Reputation: 25111
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
No per your thesis, although you make several good points. If, the "American Educational System" in the broadest sense (schooling/rigor/expectations/family involvement) wasn't a strong factor we wouldn't see so many more STEM degree holders, nominally and proportionally, from India and China and proportionally more from several old Eastern Bloc countries.
It is a different social dynamic in countries like India and China.

Becoming an engineer or a doctor there is not just an aspiration. It is a matter of survival for many people because those are among the few professions that allow you to make a decent living.

At least in the United States, you can get a job somewhere without a degree in science or engineering.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,765 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
It's not even active discouragement. Sometimes it's just passively letting students make bad decisions.

We have some posters here who suggest that for normal college-bound students it's OK to drop math and science early - like in 9th or 10th grade. Well, if you stop math instruction at algebra, you're at least two years behind when your freshman year of college rolls round, years that are VERY DIFFICULT to make up, if you DO decide to pursue a technical career. Without the calculus, having it at your fingertips and mastered, you're limited at best to "technology" degrees (MET, for example, rather than ME) which just skim over the top of the subjects.
I haven't noticed suggestions like that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 07:25 AM
 
6,985 posts, read 7,040,555 times
Reputation: 4357
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalUID View Post
This is kind of a bizarre assessment. My wife taught Chem/Physics for nearly a decade and enjoyed every moment of it until the end when she was just needing something new. Most of her colleagues had also been teaching the subject for around the same time and always geeked out about the new experimentations and demos they'd set up for the new year. My math and science teachers in high school were incredibly passionate about the subjects they taught. I still remember some of their enthusiastic lectures to this day, and it's been 20+ years.
Obviously not every teacher is going to fit the observations that I noticed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 01:02 PM
 
Location: WA
5,439 posts, read 7,726,033 times
Reputation: 8543
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
It's not even active discouragement. Sometimes it's just passively letting students make bad decisions.

We have some posters here who suggest that for normal college-bound students it's OK to drop math and science early - like in 9th or 10th grade. Well, if you stop math instruction at algebra, you're at least two years behind when your freshman year of college rolls round, years that are VERY DIFFICULT to make up, if you DO decide to pursue a technical career. Without the calculus, having it at your fingertips and mastered, you're limited at best to "technology" degrees (MET, for example, rather than ME) which just skim over the top of the subjects.
That is not possible in every state I am familiar with.

Here in Washington the MINIMUM is 3 years of both math and science which means taking both of them through your junior year. Texas is even higher with 4 years each required for science, math, English, and Social Studies. Most college-bound seniors take an AP Science Class plus either AP Calculus or AP Stats for their senior math class as that is the typical college-bound pathway. ESPECIALLY if you are applying to any colleges that have any sort of competitive admissions process at all.



And most colleges require similar levels of academic achievement in HS as a prerequisite for admissions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-30-2023, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,765 posts, read 24,261,465 times
Reputation: 32905
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
That is not possible in every state I am familiar with.

Here in Washington the MINIMUM is 3 years of both math and science which means taking both of them through your junior year. Texas is even higher with 4 years each required for science, math, English, and Social Studies. Most college-bound seniors take an AP Science Class plus either AP Calculus or AP Stats for their senior math class as that is the typical college-bound pathway. ESPECIALLY if you are applying to any colleges that have any sort of competitive admissions process at all.



And most colleges require similar levels of academic achievement in HS as a prerequisite for admissions.
Same where I have taught/administered. In science, it was usually 9th grade earth/space science, 10th grade biology, and 11th grade chemistry, with 12th grade physics optional.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top