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Old 12-01-2023, 03:09 PM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Now all they need is to make it STEHAEM (science, technology, English, History, arts, engineering, and mathematics) and it'll be fully inclusive and totally useless.

Frankly, SM (Science and Mathematics) pretty well cover the subjects of concern at the elementary and secondary school level. Engineering and technology don't really get into the mix until afterwards.
Instead of "History" make it "Humanities."

But I fully agree that Science and Mathematics is good enough in public schools. A big problem is not spending enough time on just those two areas at the elementary level.
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Old 12-01-2023, 03:44 PM
 
4,392 posts, read 4,256,555 times
Reputation: 5899
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Instead of "History" make it "Humanities."

But I fully agree that Science and Mathematics is good enough in public schools. A big problem is not spending enough time on just those two areas at the elementary level.
You may be old enough to remember when Social Studies and Science were the two classes in which children 1) practiced their reading skills to develop the comprehension to acquire content knowledge, and 2) ACTUALLY ACQUIRED CONTENT KNOWLEDGE!

Once the Powers That Be decided that No Child will be Left Behind, somehow grown-ups all over the country forgot all about that and started having students do close reading to Find the Author's Purpose.

In my role a French teacher, I would take advantage of the fact that my class was not a tested subject, so I would teach my student the content knowledge that they missed in elementary and middle school and teach it to them in French using materials designed for elementary students in France across the range of disciplines.

As someone who is proficient in both STEM and the Humanities, I see the need for a balanced approach in teaching that will develop each child as a learner, both of fields of study to which they are drawn by natural aptitude, and also in fields of study that are necessary to live a good life, even though they are not necessarily enjoyable to study.

Now I'm teaching (mostly) young adults in a STEM field, I have adopted the mantra, "We are teaching you to make a living. But you have to make your own life." So often, this is where the humanities come in. Our class often begins a discussion with a simple question like "What is truth?" in order to understand it on a logical level. Then the discussion wanders into pure mathematics, philosophy, astrophysics, literature, or any of a variety of topics (excluding -isms, none allowed). These discussions help our participants develop themselves as humans as they are developing themselves professionally.

It is essential that ALL students learn the basics of ALL fields, at least at the elementary level, just to make a life that is more than just a living. The French have an expression, "métro, boulot, dodo," that roughly translates to "subway, work, sleep," that they use to express the banality of the daily grind. We used to teach the building blocks in elementary and middle school that I teach my students--the history of the calendar, the metric conversions, "The Seven Ages of Man" soliloquy, the water cycle, Roman and Greek history, and much, much more. There have been too many sacrifices on the altar of accountability.

There should not be a wall between STEM subjects and humanities. All STEM (so far) has been developed BY humans FOR humans. It would do us all good to keep that in mind as we argue over how and what we should teach in schools.
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Old 12-01-2023, 03:53 PM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
Reputation: 31031
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
You may be old enough to remember when Social Studies and Science were the two classes in which children 1) practiced their reading skills to develop the comprehension to acquire content knowledge, and 2) ACTUALLY ACQUIRED CONTENT KNOWLEDGE!

Once the Powers That Be decided that No Child will be Left Behind, somehow grown-ups all over the country forgot all about that and started having students do close reading to Find the Author's Purpose.

In my role a French teacher, I would take advantage of the fact that my class was not a tested subject, so I would teach my student the content knowledge that they missed in elementary and middle school and teach it to them in French using materials designed for elementary students in France across the range of disciplines.

As someone who is proficient in both STEM and the Humanities, I see the need for a balanced approach in teaching that will develop each child as a learner, both of fields of study to which they are drawn by natural aptitude, and also in fields of study that are necessary to live a good life, even though they are not necessarily enjoyable to study.

Now I'm teaching (mostly) young adults in a STEM field, I have adopted the mantra, "We are teaching you to make a living. But you have to make your own life." So often, this is where the humanities come in. Our class often begins a discussion with a simple question like "What is truth?" in order to understand it on a logical level. Then the discussion wanders into pure mathematics, philosophy, astrophysics, literature, or any of a variety of topics (excluding -isms, none allowed). These discussions help our participants develop themselves as humans as they are developing themselves professionally.

It is essential that ALL students learn the basics of ALL fields, at least at the elementary level, just to make a life that is more than just a living. The French have an expression, "métro, boulot, dodo," that roughly translates to "subway, work, sleep," that they use to express the banality of the daily grind. We used to teach the building blocks in elementary and middle school that I teach my students--the history of the calendar, the metric conversions, "The Seven Ages of Man" soliloquy, the water cycle, Roman and Greek history, and much, much more. There have been too many sacrifices on the altar of accountability.

There should not be a wall between STEM subjects and humanities. All STEM (so far) has been developed BY humans FOR humans. It would do us all good to keep that in mind as we argue over how and what we should teach in schools.
The problem is that if elementary students don't get a solid grasp of the very basics--and I do include reading in that category--they will become "don't like math" and "don't like science" by middle school because they're falling ever more quickly behind.

Yes, the early learning of reading can come with acquired content knowledge...and it actually should, more than being literature-based. The same is true for math and science.
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Old 12-01-2023, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Round Rock, Texas
13,449 posts, read 15,554,577 times
Reputation: 19007
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
We have posters in this forum who want to tell their children what their career/job choice should be.
And the title of this post suggests that our nation should tell children what their career/job choice should be.

No, kids should chart their own course to go into careers that will be fulfilling to them, and not be unduly influenced by parents or anyone else. It should be fully their choice as to what they are going to be doing for 30-40 years or more. Of course, parents can and should make suggestions, and, as with many students, teachers or other respected non-family adults may set examples that would make them consider certain fields. Even our government might provide incentives to get young people to consider particular fields of study. But it's the kid's ultimate choice what they will do for the rest of their lives.
I couldn't have said it better!

Neither of my girls are interested in STEM and all of the incentivizing and encouragement wouldn't change the fact that they are both creatives, with creative minds (fashion, art (traditional and digital), design..those type of things). And it has nothing to do with their culture either. From early on they've enjoyed the arts...as did I when I was their age. One of my biggest regrets was to not pursue my love of creative writing. If you are someone who is artistically inclined, you'd understand when I say a part of you dies when you don't pursue what you love. I have never had a desire to pursue a career in engineering, let alone be interested in it.

A big mistake, IMO, is to push a kid into doing something that they don't have an interest in.
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Old 12-01-2023, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
One year I had to hire a part-time French teacher (who we would share with our high school). One candidate came in and during the interview I asked, "How much time should a student spend on homework each night?" "Three hours". "And of that three hours, how much time should be spent on French?" "No. Three hours on French each night, then another three to four hours on the other subjects. After all, French is the most important subject a student could ever take".

Yeah. Right.
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Old 12-01-2023, 06:26 PM
 
4,392 posts, read 4,256,555 times
Reputation: 5899
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
One year I had to hire a part-time French teacher (who we would share with our high school). One candidate came in and during the interview I asked, "How much time should a student spend on homework each night?" "Three hours". "And of that three hours, how much time should be spent on French?" "No. Three hours on French each night, then another three to four hours on the other subjects. After all, French is the most important subject a student could ever take".

Yeah. Right.
Maybe for AP French, which is really, really advanced. My French 1 students' homework was almost always started in class, so the minimum grade was achieved, with the rest of the assignment taking about 10-15 minutes, just enough to stimulate their neural pathways. I would regularly ask how long the homework took them. If it took a student longer than 15 minutes, I would ask if they were doing something else too. Almost always, they were.

A little bit every day is more valuable than a lot all at one time. I would ask about the difference between working out 15 minutes a day every day and working out 2 hours once a week. It was pretty clear which approach gets the better results, even though the daily workout added up to less time overall.

Your French teacher was thinking about the amount of time that students in France devote to their homework, where three hours for French alone might be more reasonable. Also, keep in mind that in France, French would be their primary language, and the study would include everything that an English course would include in the English-speaking world.

Was this a teacher from France? I once worked with a teacher from Spain, and he had a terrible time with the lack of work ethic and basic respect on the part of the students. He unrealistically expected to be able to treat them like his students back home and that they would act like the students there. He barely lasted the year.
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Old 12-01-2023, 07:36 PM
 
11,664 posts, read 12,771,645 times
Reputation: 15829
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Per your conclusion about women and medicine if you are peddling that kind of nonsense you should stop.

The garbage stat floating around is that 40% of women MDs and DOs quit medicine or go part time because of some glass ceiling/male hate. The reality is medicine in one of just a couple of professions that pays well enough that part time work and job sharing are normal.


The truth is most female MDs and DOs who go part time do so by choice usually centering around becoming moms. Per medscape females actually leave the profession at rates just a little higher than men.


My daughter and daughter in law are both young MDs - neither has said a word about being marginalized, harassed or seeing a glass ceiling.

Given the way most medical practices work, to include hospital settings how exactly could there be much of a glass ceiling? MD driven orgs. tend to be very flat.
I was not referring to the field of medicine. Not at all. Women have been highly successful in that field and run departments and have easily gone up the ladder. I was referring to the fields of physics, engineering, chem, and even bio research. I've interviewed hundreds of women in these fields for a career series and they all claim the same thing. It's not that they are prohibited from rising through the ranks. Not at all. They quit voluntarily for a variety of factors.

No need to be rude. When I post, it's usually in a hurry and I often write 2 unrelated sentences next to each other. My post may have given the impression that I was writing about female doctors. I should have started a separate paragraph.
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Old 12-02-2023, 07:53 AM
 
8,102 posts, read 4,008,230 times
Reputation: 15172
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS414 View Post
People avoid going into science and engineering because it's hard, it takes diligence and mental stamina.
True...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CCS414 View Post
It has nothing to do with the American education system..
Not true.

Take the California Mathematics Curriculum Framework promoted by progressive woke ideologues and adopted several months ago. Among other bad things, it:

  • Promotes fringe teaching methods such as “trauma-informed pedagogy.” [ch. 2, p. 16]
  • Distracts from actual mathematics by having teachers insert “environmental and social justice” into the math curriculum. [ch. 1, p. 35]
  • Distracts from actual mathematics by having teachers develop students’ “sociopolitical consciousness.” [ch. 2, p. 39]
  • Distracts from actual mathematics by assigning students—as schoolwork—tasks it says will solve “problems that result in social inequalities.” [ch. 7, p. 29]
  • Urges teachers to take a “justice-oriented perspective at any grade level, K–12” and explicitly rejects the idea that mathematics itself is a “neutral discipline.” [ch. 2, p. 29]
  • Encourages focusing on “contributions that historically marginalized people have made to mathematics” rather than on those contributions themselves which have been essential to the academic discipline of mathematics. [ch. 2, p. 31]
  • “Reject[s] ideas of natural gifts and talents” and discourages accelerating talented mathematics students. [ch. 1, p. 8]
  • Encourages keeping all students together in the same math program until the 11th grade and argues that offering differentiated programs causes student “fragility” and racial animosity. [ch.1, p. 15]
  • Rejects the longstanding goal of preparing students to take Algebra I in eighth grade, on par with high-performing foreign countries whose inhabitants will be future competitors of America's children—a goal explicitly part of the 1999 and 2006 Math Frameworks. [ch. 9, p. 43]

Instruction of the calculation and use of percentages will include, for example, "Let's say Jamar earns the California minimum wage of $15.50 per hour, works 30 hours per week, and his rent is $1200 per month. Ignoring taxes, what percentage of his pay goes to rent? What percentage of his paycheck is fair to pay for rent? What if the minimum wage goes up to $20 per hour - what percentage of his pay then goes to rent?"


Ask yourself, what is the likely impact of the implementation of the new California Mathematics Curriculum Framework on the number of students who pursue science and engineering once they set foot on a college campus?



https://www.independent.org/news/article.asp?id=13658

Last edited by moguldreamer; 12-02-2023 at 08:03 AM..
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Old 12-02-2023, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Maybe for AP French, which is really, really advanced. My French 1 students' homework was almost always started in class, so the minimum grade was achieved, with the rest of the assignment taking about 10-15 minutes, just enough to stimulate their neural pathways. I would regularly ask how long the homework took them. If it took a student longer than 15 minutes, I would ask if they were doing something else too. Almost always, they were.

A little bit every day is more valuable than a lot all at one time. I would ask about the difference between working out 15 minutes a day every day and working out 2 hours once a week. It was pretty clear which approach gets the better results, even though the daily workout added up to less time overall.

Your French teacher was thinking about the amount of time that students in France devote to their homework, where three hours for French alone might be more reasonable. Also, keep in mind that in France, French would be their primary language, and the study would include everything that an English course would include in the English-speaking world.

Was this a teacher from France? I once worked with a teacher from Spain, and he had a terrible time with the lack of work ethic and basic respect on the part of the students. He unrealistically expected to be able to treat them like his students back home and that they would act like the students there. He barely lasted the year.
No, she was not from France, and she was talking about American kids and American schools.
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Old 12-02-2023, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,126 posts, read 7,607,087 times
Reputation: 9910
Not to worry, Money and Opportunity solves most of the perceived problems of STEM education.
Those who are now in STEM may need to be worried about technological, economic and political purges.
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