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Old 12-05-2023, 03:34 PM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Actually the tax base had nothing to do with it.

The county offered a 7 period day for middle schools. Math, science, social studies, English, and PE. Then, middle schools had a list of electives they could offer for the other 2 periods, and at each school those electives were based on what students/parents chose. If we didn't have enough interest in orchestra or drama, then two teachers in two other areas would have been hired. The number of teachers hired for core and electives would have been the same, just in different electives. And, don't say but the county had to buy the instruments for orchestra, because the school system did not pay for the instruments in band or orchestra.
Apparently you don't see it, but everything you said indicates a fat tax base rather than one just treading economic waters or even drowning.

If there is availability and that availability continues long enough, it will grow interest. But interest without availability would wither away. Availability and interest are an ouroboros...one comes with the other, and there is no beginning or end to that cycle.
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Old 12-05-2023, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Apparently you don't see it, but everything you said indicates a fat tax base rather than one just treading economic waters or even drowning.

If there is availability and that availability continues long enough, it will grow interest. But interest without availability would wither away. Availability and interest are an ouroboros...one comes with the other, and there is no beginning or end to that cycle.
Apparently you don't see it, but in our electives we simply responded to the desires of the community. Electives waxed or waned each year depending on what students/parents selected. There were years "shop" grew surprisingly strong. Home ec floundered over the years. Some electives required part-time teachers instead of full-time (a mess). But of course, you'll twist our school's situation to fit your perception...even though you don't which school I am talking about or probably not even which district it was in. You don't know what the student body or parent community was like. You don't know what our gifted or special ed or ESL programs were like or how many students they included. But you still know it all.
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Old 12-05-2023, 04:38 PM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
Reputation: 31031
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Apparently you don't see it, but in our electives we simply responded to the desires of the community.
Yes, when you have a plush community. The fact that all those options are available is the earmark of a plush community supporting a plush school system.

You're talking about a school system where the parents have to pay for their children's orchestra instruments. In many school systems, we have teachers who have to pay for their own students' basic supplies because neither the school system nor the parents can afford it.
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Old 12-05-2023, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Yes, when you have a plush community. The fact that all those options are available is the earmark of a plush community supporting a plush school system.

You're talking about a school system where the parents have to pay for their children's orchestra instruments. In many school systems, we have teachers who have to pay for their own students' basic supplies because neither the school system nor the parents can afford it.
That's your point. It's not my point.
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Old 12-06-2023, 06:09 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,711 posts, read 28,831,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
School-wise, I was from a community that was very much into things other than just $$$. We had a full time orchestra teacher, a full time band teacher, and a full time drama teacher in a school of under 1,000 students (most of the time), and those programs were, literally, in demand. Along with a huge 2-part gifted program. The latter was about $$$, but the former was about cultural awareness.
Of course, school is about much more than simply getting a good job after you graduate.

Most parents want their kids to have a good childhood and be involved in many different activities. That is an end in itself. Plus, it's important and healthy to have hobbies and interests throughout your life.

Having said that, I think it's kind of sobering that most of those "extra" activities that kids are often involved in while they're in school have very little bearing on their career, earning potential or financial success when they become adults.
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Old 12-06-2023, 07:37 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,804 posts, read 58,350,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
... I think it's kind of sobering that most of those "extra" activities that kids are often involved in while they're in school have very little bearing on their career, earning potential or financial success when they become adults.
That became very obvious when we raised our kids overseas.

Most cultures do not 'cater' to the wealth of activity choices available in the USA, BUT various adults, from community members to extended families ARE very instrumental in conversing, mentoring, and engaging with youth. Where the USA is quite 'age segregated', beginning at a very young age (pre-preschool).

As a farm kid, our hobbies (and daily tasks) had a lot to do with our higher education and career path, and earning potential. As it did for my own kids, having to learn how to weld, repair, build their own houses and fix their own cars, before college. They definitely knew they did not want to run a hammer or shovel the rest of their lives.

Leadership exposure has a very large impact on youth, and their future choices. Many kids get that through sports and these USA activities, but there are other very effective ways to engage your kids in actual community roles of leadership and mentoring.

Hiring 50 - 100 youth per yr (who must work independently), you learn very quickly who has leadership interest, ability, and potential.

Exposure to adults in across the wide variety of your culture and community is also advantageous for kids making future choices. Weekly volunteering at the local soup kitchen, Senior Services, and Public Schools + 4H and non-age segregated church activities was a plus for most of our 300 student Homeschool group. We shared kids for projects and helped each other build several houses. Many of those kids ended up in STEM careers.

PS... having garages and shops (and grandparents) can help kids access 'tinkering'. My Asian coworkers were very envious of USA garages (not for the cars, but for the access to doing projects). They lived in Government apts and were lucky to have a spare closet to keep their hobby interests (usually music, RC airplanes and cars... no GUNS!)
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Old 12-06-2023, 08:28 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,473 posts, read 18,573,805 times
Reputation: 35224
PISA 2022 results are in. US ranked 34 out of 40 OECD countries in Math

https://science.slashdot.org/story/2...ion-assessment
The 2022 math score was not only lower than it was in 2012 but it was "among the lowest ever measured by PISA in mathematics" for the U.S., per the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) country note.
..
What about the rest of the world? According to Axios, a total of 31 countries and economies "maintained or improved upon their 2018 math scores, including Switzerland and Japan."

"10 countries and economies -- Canada, Denmark, Finland, Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan, Korea, Latvia, Macao and the U.K. -- saw their students score proficiently in all three domains and had 'high levels of socio-economic fairness,'" the report adds.


The response from US Education Secretary:
https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releas...cent-pisa-data
"Here's the bottom line: At an extremely tough time in education, the United States moved up in the world rankings in reading, math, and science – all three categories PISA measures – while, unfortunately, many other countries saw declines.

"Today's results are further proof that President Biden's bold investments, backed by tireless efforts at the Department of Education to support student success and academic recovery, kept the United States in the game.


PISA rankings 2022:
https://www.oecd.org/pisa/OECD_2022_...athematics.pdf
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Old 12-06-2023, 08:46 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
Reputation: 35066
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Apparently you don't see it, but everything you said indicates a fat tax base rather than one just treading economic waters or even drowning.

If there is availability and that availability continues long enough, it will grow interest. But interest without availability would wither away. Availability and interest are an ouroboros...one comes with the other, and there is no beginning or end to that cycle.
You're spot on. I'm gobsmacked there is even disagreement on this point. Tax base, funding, availability, and interest are so intertwined they can't be separated. Take away the tax base and there goes the funding. Without funding there is no availability regardless of interest.

How do you measure interest in "C" when the only choices are "A" or "B?" Amazing, no one picked "C" so there must be no interest in it. Funny how "interest" can be steered by what is provided and required. Our school system requires three years of either chorus or band in middle school. Shop isn't even an option. Then in freshman year, those same kids are heavily "guided" by "guidance counselors" into chorus or band in high school. Again, shop and home-ec aren't even options. Result is year over year we have award winning chorus and bands which generates community interest. It's a self-licking ice cream cone.
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Old 12-06-2023, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You're spot on. I'm gobsmacked there is even disagreement on this point. Tax base, funding, availability, and interest are so intertwined they can't be separated. Take away the tax base and there goes the funding. Without funding there is no availability regardless of interest.

How do you measure interest in "C" when the only choices are "A" or "B?" Amazing, no one picked "C" so there must be no interest in it. Funny how "interest" can be steered by what is provided and required. Our school system requires three years of either chorus or band in middle school. Shop isn't even an option. Then in freshman year, those same kids are heavily "guided" by "guidance counselors" into chorus or band in high school. Again, shop and home-ec aren't even options. Result is year over year we have award winning chorus and bands which generates community interest. It's a self-licking ice cream cone.
There was no 'heavy guidance' in our school. Period. A form was sent home for parents and students to choose electives. There was no contact with guidance counselors unless requested by the parents or students. But, keep the misrepresentations coming.
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Old 12-06-2023, 12:02 PM
 
19,968 posts, read 18,268,311 times
Reputation: 17412
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
PISA 2022 results are in. US ranked 34 out of 40 OECD countries in Math

https://science.slashdot.org/story/2...ion-assessment
The 2022 math score was not only lower than it was in 2012 but it was "among the lowest ever measured by PISA in mathematics" for the U.S., per the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) country note.
..
What about the rest of the world? According to Axios, a total of 31 countries and economies "maintained or improved upon their 2018 math scores, including Switzerland and Japan."

"10 countries and economies -- Canada, Denmark, Finland, Hong Kong, Ireland, Japan, Korea, Latvia, Macao and the U.K. -- saw their students score proficiently in all three domains and had 'high levels of socio-economic fairness,'" the report adds.


The response from US Education Secretary:
https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releas...cent-pisa-data
"Here's the bottom line: At an extremely tough time in education, the United States moved up in the world rankings in reading, math, and science – all three categories PISA measures – while, unfortunately, many other countries saw declines.

"Today's results are further proof that President Biden's bold investments, backed by tireless efforts at the Department of Education to support student success and academic recovery, kept the United States in the game.


PISA rankings 2022:
https://www.oecd.org/pisa/OECD_2022_...athematics.pdf


That statement is literal proof that those running the education show are incompetent liars, 34th of 40 in math means our kids are in the game to sweep floors and flip burgers.
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