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Old 12-08-2023, 08:54 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,698 posts, read 17,276,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I think it's appropriate to blame the pandemic for what is happening to our scores WITHIN country. But not appropriate to blame the scores when comparing them internationally since all countries suffered from the same pandemic.
I think the trending scores also show that Common Core did not fix any problems.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I'm an economist, here's a bar napkin run down.

1. The various official poverty rates account for the effects of inflation (using CPI-U to be specific). IOW inflation is already fit into the equation. So I'm definitionally being honest about it.

2. In '21 child poverty was ~5% and ~12% in '22. We don't know what it is right now.

2. The various poverty metrics are benchmarked against gross income but do not included things like subsidized housing, in kind transfers, medicaid, WIC, tuition waivers, private sector transfers like food, pro-bono medical care etc. IOW various transfers and welfare lift millions and millions out of poverty including kids.
Thanks for all the data. So what. Poverty affects learning whatever the number is.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:05 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I think the trending scores also show that Common Core did not fix any problems.
For those who disparage CC while not really knowing what it is (not you, but many), here's a good article on it:

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-lear...RoCMtcQAvD_BwE
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:16 AM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,566,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I think the trending scores also show that Common Core did not fix any problems.
I think making that statement is rather like looking at the physical condition of most Americans today and saying that President Kennedy's "President's Council on Physical Fitness" back in '61 did not fix any problems. The failure lies in the uneven level of executional vigor, not the basic concept.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
I think making that statement is rather like looking at the physical condition of most Americans today and saying that President Kennedy's "President's Council on Physical Fitness" did not fix any problems. The failure lies in the uneven level of executional vigor, not the basic concept.
I agree.

Back in 1985, when there was pretty much no federal influence in what schools did (speaking relatively), I took a tour of some schools in Thailand. At one school we had a sit down with the administrators and me and basically compared schools and schooling in our two countries. One of the questions they asked me was what was the national policy on education. I said it was pretty much up to the individual states and local school boards. They wondered how, as a nation, we could be so far behind.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:34 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,698 posts, read 17,276,036 times
Reputation: 34177
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
For those who disparage CC while not really knowing what it is (not you, but many), here's a good article on it:

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-lear...RoCMtcQAvD_BwE
I followed the Math part of the common core changes and wasn't impressed.
The pedagogy changed from Piaget to Vygotsky.

I was doing Middle School math...where abstract concepts were first introduced.
These kids had a hard time moving from concrete arithmetic to the abstractness of Mathematics.
IMHO Paiget's stages of development were spot on from what I saw.
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Old 12-08-2023, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I followed the Math part of the common core changes and wasn't impressed.
The pedagogy changed from Piaget to Vygotsky.

I was doing Middle School math...where abstract concepts were first introduced.
These kids had a hard time moving from concrete arithmetic to the abstractness of Mathematics.
IMHO Paiget's stages of development were spot on from what I saw.
Okay.
But that's not my point.

Why can't we figure out what should be a common core of educational knowledge and experiences? And I think the short answer is that everyone has a different opinion and we have -- to a large extent -- lost the ability to develop consensus and then accept what the consensus is.
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:03 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,238 posts, read 28,308,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Why can't we figure out what should be a common core of educational knowledge and experiences? And I think the short answer is that everyone has a different opinion and we have -- to a large extent -- lost the ability to develop consensus and then accept what the consensus is.
Everybody has a different opinion about test score goals in reading and math?

If that is the case, then should we have different expectations for different groups of Americans?
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:12 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,698 posts, read 17,276,036 times
Reputation: 34177
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Okay.
But that's not my point.

Why can't we figure out what should be a common core of educational knowledge and experiences? And I think the short answer is that everyone has a different opinion and we have -- to a large extent -- lost the ability to develop consensus and then accept what the consensus is.
Because it all became political.
Most of the people involved were "think tank" people...Ivory Tower types far removed from real life.
Above is my opinion.

Example...rote has it's place in Math especially the multiplication tables.
They are key to higher level Mathematics.
8th graders struggling with 6x8 ...how will they be able to simplify algebraic equations involving variables ?
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Old 12-08-2023, 10:19 AM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,566,859 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
Everybody has a different opinion about test score goals in reading and math?

If that is the case, then should we have different expectations for different groups of Americans?
Are those differences material or political?

And can we even get there from either point of view?

I've heard "America's Scientist" Neil deGrasse Tyson remark in a discussion with Ben Shapiro that if a scientific pursuit appears to lead to evidence that would affect a progressive political movement, that pursuit should be curtailed for the sake of the progressive political movement. That remark from Tyson surprised Shapiro (and me!) to such an extent that Shapiro asked Tyson to repeat it, which Tyson did in clear earnest.

In another conversation Tyson was having with comedian Bill Maher (the "Politically Incorrect" guy himself), Tyson remarked that a stand-up comic should always evaluate his audience for what they would find offensive and temper his act so as not to offend that audience. Maher was so surprised by that remark, thinking that Tyson must have been trolling him, that he, too, asked Tyson to repeat it...which Tyson did in clear earnest.

If "America's Scientist" is saying such things out loud, it makes me wonder how many other scientists are so willing to temper their research and conclusions to what they think their audience will accept.

How long has it been since we've truly been able to "trust the science?" What can we say about the science of educational testing and evaluation in that respect from state to state?
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