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Old 12-09-2023, 02:08 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,080 posts, read 18,252,401 times
Reputation: 34961

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I can certainly believe that when some of them sit in front of a computer for hours playing games.
It's the phones, not the computers.
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Old 12-09-2023, 02:19 PM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,298,103 times
Reputation: 45727
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Very true.

For the good of the nation, it is time to disband and outlaw teachers unions and fire incompetent administrators, principals and teachers and dispense with educational sinecures.
No one can explain to me why teachers have any less right to organize a union than any other group of employees.

I will say this: I never seriously considered becoming a teacher. Want to know why?

My sister did it and I felt it was too low paying, too structured, that you were at the mercy of demanding parents, and you had no control over the kids when they weren't in school. The reality is that a whole lot of kids in this country receive substandard parenting. Until we are ready as a society to address that fact I don't think beating up on teachers, principals, and even school administrators is going to change any thing materially.

Every problem you find in today's schools is simply a smaller version of the same problems in society.

If you want even fewer poor quality teachers than we have today than my suggestion is get rid of teacher's unions and eliminate tenure. Pretty soon no one with any ability at all will want to teach in a public school.

Now, in terms of addressing this problem in a positive way. I would make these suggestions:

1. Consider lengthening either the school day or the school year;

2. More math and science classes;

3. Make test preparation a part of the curriculum. Don't think for a moment that sort of thing doesn't go on in other countries. Its one reason why test scores are higher;

4. Design a curriculum that requires students to use math in other classes and make a point of showing why its important to understand algebra. Practical applications should be stressed. I had no clue in even high school why this stuff would be important;

5. Smaller teacher/student class ratios so that the kids can get more help when they don't understand basic concepts;

Last edited by markg91359; 12-09-2023 at 02:27 PM..
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Old 12-09-2023, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,796 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
No one can explain to me why teachers have any less right to organize a union than any other group of employees.

I will say this: I never seriously considered becoming a teacher. Want to know why?

My sister did it and I felt it was too low paying, too structured, that you were at the mercy of demanding parents, and you had no control over the kids when they weren't in school. The reality is that a whole lot of kids in this country receive substandard parenting. Until we are ready as a society to address that fact I don't think beating up on teachers, principals, and even school administrators is going to change any thing materially.

Every problem you find in today's schools is simply a smaller version of the same problems in society.

If you want even fewer poor quality teachers than we have today than my suggestion is get rid of teacher's unions and eliminate tenure. Pretty soon no one with any ability at all will want to teach in a public school.

Now, in terms of addressing this problem in a positive way. I would make these suggestions:

1. Consider lengthening either the school day or the school year;

2. More math and science classes;

3. Make test preparation a part of the curriculum. Don't think for a moment that sort of thing doesn't go on in other countries. Its one reason why test scores are higher;

4. Design a curriculum that requires students to use math in other classes and make a point of showing why its important to understand algebra. Practical applications should be stressed. I had no clue in even high school why this stuff would be important;

5. Smaller teacher/student class ratios so that the kids can get more help when they don't understand basic concepts;
Thank you for posting some positive suggestions.
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Old 12-09-2023, 04:07 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,350 posts, read 13,936,640 times
Reputation: 18267
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Very true.

For the good of the nation, it is time to disband and outlaw teachers unions and fire incompetent administrators, principals and teachers and dispense with educational sinecures.
Why the hell would anyone want to teach without a union? Do anti union people think everyone should just bend over and take it from the boss with no lube? Also, I dare you to answer without saying communist, socialist, Marxist, indoctrinate, ir groom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Further.... Outsource USA k-12 education to a friendly country who has proven they can do it more effectively for a fraction of the cost. Adapt 'best practices' from around the world.

Imagine getting double and triple utilization of school buildings, no food service, no buses, no athletic expenses... No social engineering agenda... Just academic instruction.

Lots of room for improvement here in USA

Students desiring STEM careers could research , experiment, and lead the change, from their K-12 education (which might include fewer classrooms and teachers)

Consider the results... Skyrocketing improvement in test scores, because the kids are engaged, and successful (they are improving their future, as well as that of their peers and nation.)

Putting the onus on the existing system is kicking the worn out can down the same old road. It's a DEAD end!
What the hell do you smoke on a daily basis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Then what is all the arguing on this forum about?
What's all the arguing about at school board meetings?
Why aren't schools in Mississippi not teaching pretty much the same things as schools in Massachusetts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The standards may be higher in one state over the other.

But I would expect the gist of the education to be the same.
The sad thing is some states have very low standards on education.
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Old 12-09-2023, 06:10 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,072 posts, read 7,505,741 times
Reputation: 9796
TLDR
1. Topic has been debated forever and forever...halleljah
2. Great Cream rises to the top (non homogenized); and will only fail to rise because of being homogenized, failure of person, or lack of opportunity.
3. Stuff the funnels. It’s a numbers game with filters.
4. Pay teachers for success but not the NCLB way. This will be the hard part.

Last edited by leastprime; 12-09-2023 at 06:35 PM..
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Old 12-09-2023, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,796 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
Why the hell would anyone want to teach without a union? Do anti union people think everyone should just bend over and take it from the boss with no lube? Also, I dare you to answer without saying communist, socialist, Marxist, indoctrinate, ir groom.


What the hell do you smoke on a daily basis?




The sad thing is some states have very low standards on education.
I appreciate your viewpoints on education.

I've been a union member and rep (in Maryland), been on the other side as a principal. The unions play far less of a role in the average teacher's life than our anti-union posters realize. Just for example...20 years as a school administrator and one -- yes...just 1...call from the union, and they backed me and not the teacher.
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Old 12-09-2023, 07:51 PM
 
12,846 posts, read 9,045,657 times
Reputation: 34914
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post

1. Consider lengthening either the school day or the school year;
;
What will you do with this longer day/year? How many more hours per day? What problem does it solve? How does it solve that problem? Who does it solve if for? If a student learns that day's lesson in 30 minutes, what do they do the rest of the time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
2. More math and science classes;;
I'm in favor of that. But what material will be covered? Who will teach it? Why will it be any different than math and science classes are now? How does this relate to the movement in California to reduce the amount of math required and how does it play into readiness for further learning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
3. Make test preparation a part of the curriculum. Don't think for a moment that sort of thing doesn't go on in other countries. Its one reason why test scores are higher;
;
In many places it already is. In fact one of the arguments against standardized testing is students are now spending a great deal of time learning how to take/game standardized tests and once the standardized tests are over for the year, the rest of the school years is about butts in seats and no further teaching takes place. Perhaps scheduling standardized tests at the beginning of the year will alleviate some of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
4. Design a curriculum that requires students to use math in other classes and make a point of showing why its important to understand algebra. Practical applications should be stressed. I had no clue in even high school why this stuff would be important;
;
I agree on the need for practical solutions, but who will demonstrate those practical solutions? They aren't doing it now so what will change to do it later? The new standards in our state do try to roll math throughout other classes but also try to roll various humanities into math. I think the jury is still out on whether that helps reinforce lessons or dilutes them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
5. Smaller teacher/student class ratios so that the kids can get more help when they don't understand basic concepts;
Smaller than what? What is the ideal number? Is it the same for different subjects? Can you have smaller classes in say, physics than phy ed? We need concrete numbers if you want to plan a budget for something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I appreciate your viewpoints on education.

I've been a union member and rep (in Maryland), been on the other side as a principal. The unions play far less of a role in the average teacher's life than our anti-union posters realize. Just for example...20 years as a school administrator and one -- yes...just 1...call from the union, and they backed me and not the teacher.
It's a bit disingenuous to represent the concern about unions in terms of how it plays into individual teacher's lives. To be very clear, the concern we have about groups like the NEA and AFT has NOT ONE thing to do with individual teachers, but with the POLICIES they advocate and political actions they support at the national and state level. If those unions actually focused on teacher issues and negotiations at the local level, most people wouldn't care. All anyone needs to do is review the NEA and AFT websites and they tell you straight up what their political concerns are and what their political actions are. Most of which have absolutely ZERO to do with the actual education and school system within this country.
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,796 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
What will you do with this longer day/year? How many more hours per day? What problem does it solve? How does it solve that problem? Who does it solve if for? If a student learns that day's lesson in 30 minutes, what do they do the rest of the time?

I'm in favor of that. But what material will be covered? Who will teach it? Why will it be any different than math and science classes are now? How does this relate to the movement in California to reduce the amount of math required and how does it play into readiness for further learning?


In many places it already is. In fact one of the arguments against standardized testing is students are now spending a great deal of time learning how to take/game standardized tests and once the standardized tests are over for the year, the rest of the school years is about butts in seats and no further teaching takes place. Perhaps scheduling standardized tests at the beginning of the year will alleviate some of this.

I agree on the need for practical solutions, but who will demonstrate those practical solutions? They aren't doing it now so what will change to do it later? The new standards in our state do try to roll math throughout other classes but also try to roll various humanities into math. I think the jury is still out on whether that helps reinforce lessons or dilutes them.


Smaller than what? What is the ideal number? Is it the same for different subjects? Can you have smaller classes in say, physics than phy ed? We need concrete numbers if you want to plan a budget for something.


It's a bit disingenuous to represent the concern about unions in terms of how it plays into individual teacher's lives. To be very clear, the concern we have about groups like the NEA and AFT has NOT ONE thing to do with individual teachers, but with the POLICIES they advocate and political actions they support at the national and state level. If those unions actually focused on teacher issues and negotiations at the local level, most people wouldn't care. All anyone needs to do is review the NEA and AFT websites and they tell you straight up what their political concerns are and what their political actions are. Most of which have absolutely ZERO to do with the actual education and school system within this country.
At least MarkG offered some positive suggestions...instead of just griping.

In terms of what you blathered on again about unions, I didn't address in my comments anything about what the NEA and AFT does in terms of policy. I talked specifically about the degree of impact they have on teachers on a daily basis. So you were not addressing my post.
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Old 12-09-2023, 09:53 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,350 posts, read 13,936,640 times
Reputation: 18267
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
It's a bit disingenuous to represent the concern about unions in terms of how it plays into individual teacher's lives. To be very clear, the concern we have about groups like the NEA and AFT has NOT ONE thing to do with individual teachers, but with the POLICIES they advocate and political actions they support at the national and state level. If those unions actually focused on teacher issues and negotiations at the local level, most people wouldn't care. All anyone needs to do is review the NEA and AFT websites and they tell you straight up what their political concerns are and what their political actions are. Most of which have absolutely ZERO to do with the actual education and school system within this country.
Do tell. What policies are these? Answer without saying liberal, woke, indoctrinate, groom, bias, communist, socialist, or Marxist if you can.
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:23 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,705 posts, read 58,031,425 times
Reputation: 46172
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I appreciate your viewpoints on education.

....

Viewpoints on education?

Let's hear it?

(Crickets)
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