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Old 12-09-2023, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,956 posts, read 7,330,828 times
Reputation: 9699

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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
No one can explain to me why teachers have any less right to organize a union than any other group of employees.

I will say this: I never seriously considered becoming a teacher. Want to know why?

My sister did it and I felt it was too low paying, too structured, that you were at the mercy of demanding parents, and you had no control over the kids when they weren't in school. The reality is that a whole lot of kids in this country receive substandard parenting. Until we are ready as a society to address that fact I don't think beating up on teachers, principals, and even school administrators is going to change any thing materially.

Every problem you find in today's schools is simply a smaller version of the same problems in society.

If you want even fewer poor quality teachers than we have today than my suggestion is get rid of teacher's unions and eliminate tenure. Pretty soon no one with any ability at all will want to teach in a public school.

Now, in terms of addressing this problem in a positive way. I would make these suggestions:
Won't work for the left or right tails of the curve.
1. Consider lengthening either the school day or the school year;

2. More math and science classes;

3. Make test preparation a part of the curriculum. Don't think for a moment that sort of thing doesn't go on in other countries. Its one reason why test scores are higher;

4. Design a curriculum that requires students to use math in other classes and make a point of showing why its important to understand algebra. Practical applications should be stressed. I had no clue in even high school why this stuff would be important;

5. Smaller teacher/student class ratios so that the kids can get more help when they don't understand basic concepts;
[quote=phetaroi;66166709]Thank you for posting some positive suggestions
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
TLDR
1. Topic has been debated forever and forever...halleljah
2. Great Cream rises to the top (non homogenized); and will only fail to rise because of being homogenized, failure of person, or lack of opportunity.
3. Stuff the funnels. It’s a numbers game with filters.
4. Pay teachers for success but not the NCLB way. This will be the hard part.
Good suggestions.
IMO, will mostly work for the middle cohort (+/-2 std dev.)
Won't work for high achievers and low achievers and questionable families that give low support.

Our DS (38) was in the higher end of the Bell Curve.
He threaten to quit school in the 2nd grade because he was so segregated and isolated in his age class.
Our public school system was ready for him and promoted him two grades but we only allowed him one grade skip. He never did homework, did all the STEM classes, IB program. Graduated top in class.
Did EC is public speaking activities rather than STEM. The system gave him a lot of opportunities and guidance but not "instructional." College he duel majored in ME and soft CS, graduated near top in class. He is not a Sheldon Cooper, but he did struggle to stay academically involved in k-12 school.

My cousin (78) also struggled academically. He did 1 year in college, 1 year as a Boeing draftsman, then 6 in the military before returning to college to get his BS. Technology caught up to his level as a field engineer for a computer company and later a manager at a laboratory.
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Old 12-10-2023, 06:23 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,238 posts, read 28,308,556 times
Reputation: 24764
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I will say this: I never seriously considered becoming a teacher. Want to know why?

My sister did it and I felt it was too low paying, too structured, that you were at the mercy of demanding parents, and you had no control over the kids when they weren't in school. The reality is that a whole lot of kids in this country receive substandard parenting. Until we are ready as a society to address that fact I don't think beating up on teachers, principals, and even school administrators is going to change any thing materially.
There is nothing our educational system can do about students when they are not in school.

In fact, they shouldn’t do anything about it because that is the students’ private life.

There is no law against being a substandard parent as long as you are not abusing your kids.
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Old 12-10-2023, 08:44 AM
 
12,586 posts, read 8,816,051 times
Reputation: 34426
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
At least MarkG offered some positive suggestions...instead of just griping.
Seems like you and Mogould had this same discussion on another thread where you confused vague concepts for workable suggestions. If you look at my responses, they asked the types of specifics needed to separate sound bites from actionable items. As someone who was a manager you should know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
In terms of what you blathered on again about unions, I didn't address in my comments anything about what the NEA and AFT does in terms of policy. I talked specifically about the degree of impact they have on teachers on a daily basis. So you were not addressing my post.
I directly addressed your post by pointing out the fact that you once again ignored the real issue most of us have with unions while attacking a different strawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NDak15 View Post
Do tell. What policies are these? Answer without saying liberal, woke, indoctrinate, groom, bias, communist, socialist, or Marxist if you can.
Be happy to. What about this one:
https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-c...order-act-hr-2

What does that have to do with improving American education? Does it do anything to improve teacher education? Does it do anything to improve courseware?

If you and Phetaroi want to have this discussion, just pick one at a time and create a thread on it so we don't derail this one even more.
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Old 12-10-2023, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Seems like you and Mogould had this same discussion on another thread where you confused vague concepts for workable suggestions. If you look at my responses, they asked the types of specifics needed to separate sound bites from actionable items. As someone who was a manager you should know that.


I directly addressed your post by pointing out the fact that you once again ignored the real issue most of us have with unions while attacking a different strawman.



Be happy to. What about this one:
https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-c...order-act-hr-2

What does that have to do with improving American education? Does it do anything to improve teacher education? Does it do anything to improve courseware?

If you and Phetaroi want to have this discussion, just pick one at a time and create a thread on it so we don't derail this one even more.
I rarely see concrete suggestions from you.

I am not required to support your points, and have every right to bring in related points.

I try my best NOT to get into politics in this part of the forum.
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Old 12-10-2023, 12:47 PM
 
Location: North Dakota
10,230 posts, read 13,737,164 times
Reputation: 18011
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
There is nothing our educational system can do about students when they are not in school.

In fact, they shouldn’t do anything about it because that is the students’ private life.

There is no law against being a substandard parent as long as you are not abusing your kids.
Exactly. Teachers have zero control outside of their classrooms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Be happy to. What about this one:
https://www.nea.org/advocating-for-c...order-act-hr-2

What does that have to do with improving American education? Does it do anything to improve teacher education? Does it do anything to improve courseware?

If you and Phetaroi want to have this discussion, just pick one at a time and create a thread on it so we don't derail this one even more.
I'll agree, this isn't something that should be on the agenda. But I bet most teachers would rather still support an organization that fights for their rights even if they may take on other causes. You know, seeing as how working conditions are probably a bit more important than immigration.
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Old 12-10-2023, 04:20 PM
 
14,302 posts, read 14,095,170 times
Reputation: 45421
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
What will you do with this longer day/year? How many more hours per day? What problem does it solve? How does it solve that problem? Who does it solve if for? If a student learns that day's lesson in 30 minutes, what do they do the rest of the time?

Excellent students should be permitted to read or study for other classes during this time. It should be up to each teacher to determine whether students are learning the material or not.



I'm in favor of that. But what material will be covered? Who will teach it? Why will it be any different than math and science classes are now? How does this relate to the movement in California to reduce the amount of math required and how does it play into readiness for further learning?

It will be different because one of the major problems in schools right now is that teachers have insufficient time to teach difficult concepts to classes of 25, 30, or even larger in some places. I think one of the reasons students don't understand difficult concepts is insufficient time to do so. Some students need more time to question the teacher. Others need more time to practice in class doing problems. Still others learn from being able to talk to and collaborate with other students. All I can say is California is making a mistake.


In many places it already is. In fact one of the arguments against standardized testing is students are now spending a great deal of time learning how to take/game standardized tests and once the standardized tests are over for the year, the rest of the school years is about butts in seats and no further teaching takes place. Perhaps scheduling standardized tests at the beginning of the year will alleviate some of this.

If we want students to score higher on standardized tests, so that America is not 34 out of 40 than I do believe teaching kids how to take a standardized test is one solution. I'm not naive. I think any number of those countries which have high standardized test averages are "teaching to the test". The kids aren't eight steps above American kids. They simply have learned how to play the system and make things look better than they really are.

I agree on the need for practical solutions, but who will demonstrate those practical solutions? They aren't doing it now so what will change to do it later? The new standards in our state do try to roll math throughout other classes but also try to roll various humanities into math. I think the jury is still out on whether that helps reinforce lessons or dilutes them.

We have a Department of Education. I think that ought to be a principal role of the DoE. The DoE doesn't run schools, but it allocates some money and the concept was that it would show states and school districts better ways of doing things. Now that I am adult professional with a graduate degree from a university, I understand a bit about statistics. Linear and quadratic equations are the critical component of graphs and charts. I can think of a hundred ways to show high school students the importance of learning this math and constructing charts and graphs that illustrate relationships. Too bad it was never once done when I was in high school.


Smaller than what? What is the ideal number? Is it the same for different subjects? Can you have smaller classes in say, physics than phy ed? We need concrete numbers if you want to plan a budget for something.

Ideally, I would like to see math classes of about twenty students. Teachers would have more time to work with individual students and make sure that all questions get answered. I would also like to see a math tutoring center in all high schools so students get more instruction if they needed it. I would like to see smaller classes all around, but I do see math and science as particularly important.


It's a bit disingenuous to represent the concern about unions in terms of how it plays into individual teacher's lives. To be very clear, the concern we have about groups like the NEA and AFT has NOT ONE thing to do with individual teachers, but with the POLICIES they advocate and political actions they support at the national and state level. If those unions actually focused on teacher issues and negotiations at the local level, most people wouldn't care. All anyone needs to do is review the NEA and AFT websites and they tell you straight up what their political concerns are and what their political actions are. Most of which have absolutely ZERO to do with the actual education and school system within this country.
I am tired of the teacher's union being the whipping boy of everyone who is upset that the schools aren't doing a better job. There are a myriad of reasons why student performance is not high in the USA. Only a small percentage of this can be traced to inadequate teaching. Most of it has to do with what goes on when students aren't in school. You want to solve education problems? Those are the problems that need to be dealt with.

[quote=leastprime;66167835]
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Thank you for posting some positive suggestions


Good suggestions.
IMO, will mostly work for the middle cohort (+/-2 std dev.)
Won't work for high achievers and low achievers and questionable families that give low support.

Our DS (38) was in the higher end of the Bell Curve.
He threaten to quit school in the 2nd grade because he was so segregated and isolated in his age class.
Our public school system was ready for him and promoted him two grades but we only allowed him one grade skip. He never did homework, did all the STEM classes, IB program. Graduated top in class.
Did EC is public speaking activities rather than STEM. The system gave him a lot of opportunities and guidance but not "instructional." College he duel majored in ME and soft CS, graduated near top in class. He is not a Sheldon Cooper, but he did struggle to stay academically involved in k-12 school.

My cousin (78) also struggled academically. He did 1 year in college, 1 year as a Boeing draftsman, then 6 in the military before returning to college to get his BS. Technology caught up to his level as a field engineer for a computer company and later a manager at a laboratory.
I think you are largely accurate. Most of my suggestions are aimed at the middle 75% or 80% of students. The really bright kids will learn even if you just put a book in front of them. The kids in the bottom 10% are not going to be up to grade level. Its just that simple. I had a daughter that struggled with math despite being in a top notch school, getting support at home, and being tutored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
There is nothing our educational system can do about students when they are not in school.

In fact, they shouldn’t do anything about it because that is the students’ private life.

There is no law against being a substandard parent as long as you are not abusing your kids.
You are correct. However, you are also conceding that we probably cannot do much more to make a large section of students perform better. Teachers are teachers. They are not magicians. They cannot fix homes that don't have books, don't give kids a proper place and supervision to do homework, are full of domestic violence, have parents that abuse drugs or alcohol, or do nothing but set kids in front of a television set every evening after school.

Maybe there is no solution. However, what I won't do is blame the school system for not performing a miracle with kids when this is the environment they are dealing with.


* My replies in bold
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Old 12-10-2023, 05:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
[quote=markg91359;66169879]I am tired of the teacher's union being the whipping boy of everyone who is upset that the schools aren't doing a better job. There are a myriad of reasons why student performance is not high in the USA. Only a small percentage of this can be traced to inadequate teaching. Most of it has to do with what goes on when students aren't in school. You want to solve education problems? Those are the problems that need to be dealt with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post

I think you are largely accurate. Most of my suggestions are aimed at the middle 75% or 80% of students. The really bright kids will learn even if you just put a book in front of them. The kids in the bottom 10% are not going to be up to grade level. Its just that simple. I had a daughter that struggled with math despite being in a top notch school, getting support at home, and being tutored.



You are correct. However, you are also conceding that we probably cannot do much more to make a large section of students perform better. Teachers are teachers. They are not magicians. They cannot fix homes that don't have books, don't give kids a proper place and supervision to do homework, are full of domestic violence, have parents that abuse drugs or alcohol, or do nothing but set kids in front of a television set every evening after school.

Maybe there is no solution. However, what I won't do is blame the school system for not performing a miracle with kids when this is the environment they are dealing with.


* My replies in bold
Fully in agreement with your post...although the way you constructed it was a bit confusing (as shown by most of your post not showing up above)...but that's okay...you are on the right positive track.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:37 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,956 posts, read 7,330,828 times
Reputation: 9699
^ incorrect attribution to me. It belongs to, Markg91359.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:00 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,956 posts, read 7,330,828 times
Reputation: 9699
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
...snip...
I think you are largely accurate. Most of my suggestions are aimed at the middle 75% or 80% of students. The really bright kids will learn even if you just put a book in front of them. The kids in the bottom 10% are not going to be up to grade level. Its just that simple. I had a daughter that struggled with math despite being in a top notch school, getting support at home, and being tutored.

[b]You are correct. However, you are also conceding that we probably cannot do much more to make a large section of students perform better. Teachers are teachers. They are not magicians. They cannot fix homes that don't have books, don't give kids a proper place and supervision to do homework, are full of domestic violence, have parents that abuse drugs or alcohol, or do nothing but set kids in front of a television set every evening after school.
...snip
Probably not the "middle 75% or 80%" are suited for STEM. Maybe top 25% of the "middle" who can be trained in the technicals. Those above 2sigma can fend for themselves.
The Middle is the World.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:40 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,563 posts, read 57,481,475 times
Reputation: 45927
Why schools never grasped their primary deliverable (Education), and passed the social ills that prevent them from doing their primary task, to a responsible party who is TRAINED and has the resources and responsibility to DO IT

Wait... I hear the EXCUSES / deferred blame

When those in the private sector run against a barrier... they SOLVE it, not call it an EXCUSE. Excuses don't fly. Can't figure out how to do your primary task? Poof, you're gone.

When you're in the war, it's the responses and needs of the front line that define the reinforcements and progress. The big shot strategists in the back rooms only have to deliver the proper resources to assist the front line, and to advance the primary objective.

Map it
Develop a strategy
Implement the strategy
Evaluate the progress
Tweak the strategy (but don't abandon your front line, LISTEN to them, and respond with their needs) Action, not money.
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