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Old 12-11-2023, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
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Getting back to OP:
I wonder what is the budget proportion devoted to AP classes?
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Old 12-11-2023, 09:37 PM
 
14,457 posts, read 14,412,761 times
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I believe the "blame the parents" is overstated in the general sense. Yes, there are those parents who are bad parents and deserve 100% of the blame. And another bunch that are 70%-80-90%. But the reality is they are just a small percentage of the parents. Most parents are trying to be good parents and do the right thing education wise toward their children. Based on you answer to how you raised yours, you did your part and more. Like the vast majority of parents out there. So why do you or they deserve 60% of the blame?

We raised our kids through much the same steps you listed. Some parents even went way beyond, constantly at the school, paying for additional classes, summer study, etc to maximize their kids chances of success. Much of what they were paying for, and what we and other parents tried, was designed to make up for the deficiencies in the education they were getting at school system. No matter how we want to cut it, ultimately the education system is 100% responsible for providing what they are paid to provide. But so many of us as parents aren't getting that from the school system.

How much of the day do kids spend in school? Maybe six to seven hours? How much do they spend at home? Seventeen to eighteen hours? If we do percentages, children are spending 70% to 75% of their time at home. That influence is going to be greater than that of the school.

I'm a little jaded because of where I live and things I've seen over the years. I will say I live in an area where people tend to have large families. The same people fuss about how much their property taxes are. I recently sold a home that was worth about $650,000. I had two children. The average parent here though probably had three or four kids. One guy had eleven kids and lived in a home that was probably smaller and cheaper than my own. Based on the current tax structure, I was paying more to educate his kids than he is. Of course, people are going to object to that sort of thing and net effect here has been schools that were underfunded. Most of the classes my kids were in classes that had thirty students or more. What I'm saying is that an underfunded system like that cannot provide the education that you want it to provide no matter how you insist it is the duty of that system to do so. Perhaps, the old saying "if wishes were horses than beggars would ride" applies.

I appreciate Phetaroi and all he has to say here. I hope he is not offended when I tell him I would not have chosen to be a public school teacher under any circumstance. The salary is too low and public expectations are too high. I have better things to do with my time and an attitude that somehow the school system should be able to magically overcome all these problems is beyond unrealistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
69% of American school students live in two parent households. Roughly 23% in single family homes. 14.5% live in poverty. (Census Bureau) Roughly 62% of recent graduates enrolled in college (BLS) but only 62% of those will graduate in six years (NCES) with about 38% of the adult population being college graduates. Don't have good statistics handy on US vocational ed but for Tennessee, roughly 20% enrolled in vocational or community college.

No one denies situations as you describe exist. But they simply are not the vast majority of families. Extreme examples certainly have more emotional appeal than saying a kid went to school, got good, but average grades, graduated, got a job, etc, but don't provide any support for the typical kids.
The poverty level is only part of it. Let's add a world where kids are surrounded by hordes of electronic toys that are frankly more interesting to most of them than a book by Charles Dickens or a page in a math text that contains postulates from geometry. Reading and math scores have declined as penetration of the market with electronics has grown. I believe I could easily demonstrate that with a graph. Throw in alcohol and drug abuse. Than there are all the implications of divorce. How many families in an area speak English as a second language? How many families routinely pull their kids out of school when there is some sort of family problem? Let's add discipline problems with a small percentage of students that take up huge quantities of the administration's time. Child abuse and neglect is not limited to poor families either. It crosses all income boundaries.

Another issue I have is school sports. I think physical education is a critical and vital part of learning. However, I do wonder if so much time and energy should be absorbed by sports like football, basketball, and baseball. The time and resources these activities use up could be spent doing other things. Yet, if you were to try and abolish or limit these its parents who would object the most. Personally, I think if they want their kids doing these activities they should arrange for it outside of school hours and at their expense.

I think there are things that can be done to ameliorate all the problems I've mentioned. However, none of them are easy. None of them are free. Some people will object to every proposed reform and we have to have the strength to ignore some opposition. I see the schools as simply reflecting larger problems we have in America.

Last edited by markg91359; 12-11-2023 at 09:46 PM..
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Old 12-11-2023, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
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Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
All the students I was describing are white.
Exactly.
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Old 12-11-2023, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
All the students I was describing are white.
And I will tell you what can be one of the worst family situations -- the parents who stay together "for the kids"...and it can be a miserable life.
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Old 12-11-2023, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
69% of American school students live in two parent households. Roughly 23% in single family homes. 14.5% live in poverty. (Census Bureau) Roughly 62% of recent graduates enrolled in college (BLS) but only 62% of those will graduate in six years (NCES) with about 38% of the adult population being college graduates. Don't have good statistics handy on US vocational ed but for Tennessee, roughly 20% enrolled in vocational or community college.

No one denies situations as you describe exist. But they simply are not the vast majority of families. Extreme examples certainly have more emotional appeal than saying a kid went to school, got good, but average grades, graduated, got a job, etc, but don't provide any support for the typical kids.
That 31% of children who do not live in 2 parent households equals over 17 million kids.
That 14.5% who live in poverty equals nearly 8 million kids.
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Old 12-12-2023, 12:59 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,710 posts, read 28,831,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
69% of American school students live in two parent households. Roughly 23% in single family homes. 14.5% live in poverty. (Census Bureau) Roughly 62% of recent graduates enrolled in college (BLS) but only 62% of those will graduate in six years (NCES) with about 38% of the adult population being college graduates. Don't have good statistics handy on US vocational ed but for Tennessee, roughly 20% enrolled in vocational or community college.

No one denies situations as you describe exist. But they simply are not the vast majority of families. Extreme examples certainly have more emotional appeal than saying a kid went to school, got good, but average grades, graduated, got a job, etc, but don't provide any support for the typical kids.
67% of African American children live in single-parent households.

Blacks have had a significantly higher rate of single-parenthood than other races for many decades in the United States.

However, single-parenthood has also increased for all races since the 1950s.
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Old 12-12-2023, 06:50 AM
 
12,903 posts, read 9,164,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
That 31% of children who do not live in 2 parent households equals over 17 million kids.
That 14.5% who live in poverty equals nearly 8 million kids.
Which is still a long way from "all" or "most." You can't keep blaming the problem with education on parents. I know it's fashionable to claim "parents do this" or "parents don't do that" and it will be true for some but not most.

So back to the question at hand, what percentage of the problem in education is the parent's fault and what is the school's fault?
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Old 12-12-2023, 07:19 AM
 
12,903 posts, read 9,164,788 times
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Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
What percent of responsibility would you put on teachers for students not learning in school? At the most, I blame the system about 40%. The other 60% is on parents.

I don't want a medal for parenting. My point is simply that for children to succeed in school parents have to be willing to do their part. We did ours. I suspect many parents do not do theirs. Those failures account for much of the reason why Johnny cannot read or do Algebra.
How many is "many?" My contention is that number is only a small portion of parents and that most are doing the same as you.

Why are you to blame for 60% of the problems?


Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
How much of the day do kids spend in school? Maybe six to seven hours? How much do they spend at home? Seventeen to eighteen hours? If we do percentages, children are spending 70% to 75% of their time at home. That influence is going to be greater than that of the school.
So what? You seem to be claiming that you did everything right in those hours your kids were at home but that all the rest of the parents are doing everything wrong. That's what I'm arguing is the majority of parent are doing just like you and doing their part of the "social contract" with the school. We all know some parents who aren't, but "some" is not "all."

Hence trying to blame all the problems with our education system on parents becomes an easy deflection; a way for the education system to avoid looking too deeply at itself. The fortunate thing is, not all educators are stuck in that rut. I've met a number who recognize the current education system no longer functions well and is out of sync with modern learning needs. Yet even they admit that the current system has too many entrenched personnel unwilling to adapt.
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Old 12-12-2023, 07:32 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,710 posts, read 28,831,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
So back to the question at hand, what percentage of the problem in education is the parent's fault and what is the school's fault?
If you want kids to do excel in school, then that is largely the parents’ responsibility.

Teachers are mainly a guide. Their job is to teach. But they are not going to turn your kid into a straight A student with high test scores.

I can say from personal experience that’s how it works in the real world.
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Old 12-12-2023, 07:34 AM
 
14,457 posts, read 14,412,761 times
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Originally Posted by tnff View Post

Hence trying to blame all the problems with our education system on parents becomes an easy deflection; a way for the education system to avoid looking too deeply at itself. The fortunate thing is, not all educators are stuck in that rut. I've met a number who recognize the current education system no longer functions well and is out of sync with modern learning needs. Yet even they admit that the current system has too many entrenched personnel unwilling to adapt.
Your post is illogical. I've demonstrated that children spend approximately 70% to 75% of their time in their homes. It would follow than that the home/parents/family is 70% to 75% of the influence on children.

Yet, you seem to think that even if these are the primary influences that somehow schools ought to be able to step in and totally transform the lives of children who are not performing well academically. This may happen in a minority of situations. It doesn't happen most of the time.

Nor, do you explain how this is to occur. Do you think if we think if we eliminate teacher's unions that somehow higher quality people will want to become teachers and do a better job? Do you think teachers will work harder when they see themselves earning a salary that does not keep up with inflation?

I realize there is a lot of frustration out there in this country. There are millions of people who want some magical solution to complicated problems. Let's just snap our fingers and all the difficulty will be gone! Real life doesn't work that way. Improvement in education will only occur when the majority of parents take education more seriously than they have in the past.

Finally, I don't accept the idea that most parents parented on the level that I did. We had some issues with our kids performance in school that had to be addressed with both of them. Not everyone has either the capability (graduate level college degrees) or the financial resources we had. How many parents can afford expensive summer programs for children that get their skills up to par? The answer is a few do, but probably most don't.
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