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Old 12-12-2023, 07:35 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
If you want kids to do excel in school, then that is largely the parents’ responsibility.

Teachers are mainly a guide, but they are not going to turn your kid into a straight A student with high test scores.

I can say from personal experience that’s how it works in the real world.
What, specifically, do you expect parents to do?

And don't say, "Help them with homework," because the pedagogues change up their systems every couple of years to make that nearly impossible.
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Old 12-12-2023, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Which is still a long way from "all" or "most." You can't keep blaming the problem with education on parents. I know it's fashionable to claim "parents do this" or "parents don't do that" and it will be true for some but not most.

So back to the question at hand, what percentage of the problem in education is the parent's fault and what is the school's fault?
Why do you even think it's possible to give a percentage for something like that?

And which poster seriously said "all"?
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Old 12-12-2023, 08:06 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
...Not everyone has either the capability (graduate level college degrees) or the financial resources we had. How many parents can afford expensive summer programs for children that get their skills up to par? The answer is a few do, but probably most don't.
That's something that really shined through in my school which had three drastically different neighborhoods, ranging from 'mansions', to lower class tiny houses, to relatively low rent apartments.

As I have related in the past, we had kids who summered on the Riviera...or went each year to 'science camp' or 'math camp'. And kids who hadn't been to the Washington Monument, Capitol, or White House 7 miles away from their neighborhood. And the difference was $$$ available.
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Old 12-12-2023, 08:13 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,713 posts, read 28,831,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
What, specifically, do you expect parents to do?

And don't say, "Help them with homework," because the pedagogues change up their systems every couple of years to make that nearly impossible.
You don’t do the homework for them. But you can review class notes with them and create practice problems, use online sources to clarify issues.

There are also sources like scholastic, kumon, Singapore math, Khan Academy, tutors, etc.

So, all of these tools are out there to help students do better in school and improve their grades. If a parent is serious, then they will make use of them.
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Old 12-12-2023, 08:21 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
You don’t do the homework for them. But you can create practice problems for them, review class notes with them, use online sources to clarify issues.
Not really. As I said, the pedagogues keep changing up the system...and even the "facts." When my kids were in school, I got tired of saying, "Your teacher is wrong."

If you're going to do that, you might as well start homeschooling, because otherwise you're just going to tie the kids into knots.

Quote:
There are also sources like scholastic, kumon, Singapore math, Khan Academy, tutors, etc.
Now, you're talking big money and a small percentage of parents who have that money.

Quote:
So, all of these tools are out there to help students do better in school and improve their grades. If a parent is serious, then they will make use of them.
When I was a kid, my parents made sure I was at the kitchen table doing my homework and made sure I respected the teacher. They didn't have to do any actual "teaching" activities with me. I suspect that was true of nearly everyone my age and older.
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Old 12-12-2023, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Not really. As I said, the pedagogues keep changing up the system...and even the "facts." When my kids were in school, I got tired of saying, "Your teacher is wrong."

If you're going to do that, you might as well start homeschooling, because otherwise you're just going to tie the kids into knots.



Now, you're talking big money and a small percentage of parents who have that money.



When I was a kid, my parents made sure I was at the kitchen table doing my homework and made sure I respected the teacher. They didn't have to do any actual "teaching" activities with me. I suspect that was true of nearly everyone my age and older.
1. Jeez. I don't think I've ever heard a teacher say that they don't want parents providing kids with some help in subjects which they can...for example reading a text (or reading online), or basic arithmetic/math.

2. If you got tired telling your kids who wrong teachers were...perhaps you were the problem. That's not to say teachers are always right. And if you think that teachers always say and do what your kids tell you they say and do...well, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you.

3. Appropriate help in appropriate subjects is not going to tie kids in knots...whatever that means.

4. I do agree with your comment about money.
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Old 12-12-2023, 10:14 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,807 posts, read 58,350,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
What percent of responsibility would you put on teachers for students not learning in school? At the most, I blame the system about 40%. The other 60% is on parents.

...
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
How much of the day do kids spend in school? Maybe six to seven hours? How much do they spend at home? Seventeen to eighteen hours? If we do percentages, children are spending 70% to 75% of their time at home. ... Most of the classes my kids were in classes that had thirty students or more. What I'm saying is that an underfunded system ....
So back to the question at hand, what percentage of the problem in education is the parent's fault and what is the school's fault?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
What, specifically, do you expect parents to do?

.....

Parents!
Many (if not most) students do not have parental engagement in school, or in the student's progress, Many USA students don't even have parents engaged in their life - this is nothing new, but is somewhat unique to USA culture, maybe due to our age segregation from age 5+, and now those 5 yr olds are PARENTS . And 'parenting' as they we shown by example. (parents absorbing into 'accumulating' for the 'benefit' (?) of their family's needs(?)) Accumulation is false, get over it. But most in USA CHOOSE to pursue. +/- Keeps employment high, as well as commerce (especially the commerce of higher education)

Consider the millions of (successful) kids around the world who are away from their parents tonight. Boarding School to refuge camps, Royalty to paupers. We work with many of those kids around the world, some have not seen their parents for 5+ yrs (working on cruise ships, Saudi oil fields, domestic servants, FT military, incarcerated... or on the run or self indulged)

From Military to Missionaries, sometimes Boarding School is their only option. Many expats and active military we lived with internationally mailed their kids off to boarding school at age 5. These kids were generally very successful (and happy), in spite of not having 18 hrs / day with their parents.

Parental BLAME is not a scapegoat for a career, professional (?) educator.
The educator has a job / task / objective to meet. EVERY job has barriers. It's the burden of the professional to deliver their objectives, in spite of barriers. We each do it every day, it's not only expected... it's REQUIRED. Can't hack it, can't deliver? Poof, you're gone.

Societal issues haunting the school students? The USA has a VERY large and educated and funded social network, especially compared to the 30+ nations leading in academics. (If the USA had their academics effective, there would be far less need for social programs ) It's the death spiral down the drain (if we continue to watch (and worse...point fingers)). 'Not MY job...' Easy to say and live with (and watch), if you are not an employer, and daily dealing with the output of USA EDU. 'Barf emoji'.

Quote:
What I'm saying is that an underfunded system
Surely you are not speaking of a USA public education operation Stats above in this thread. lack of MONEY is NOT the excuse for our USA performance in education.

Quote:
what percentage of the problem in education is the parent's fault and what is the school's fault?
100% of the taxpayers / government fault for accepting Schools to NOT do their J-o-b

0% educational BLAME for USA parents (who don't HAVE to give a rip about schools or their kids. (Free daycare, so parents can pursue and indulge themselves). The vast majority of USA parents have rolled over and played dead during the decline of USA Education (which is quite obvious from the test scores / academic achievement of our nation. )

BTW: At this very moment I'm listening to a National Propaganda Radio program on 'k-12 education', "Our curriculum this week is to 'prepare our students for winter break' " Comments from participants:
1) There are no academics
2) We are educating about;
..a) Abuse, how to live safe in a violent home or neighborhood
..b) Subsistence, Feeding yourself and siblings when there is no food in the house, or anyone to prepare it.
..c) Health, personal Hygiene (not how to shop / eat / live healthy...)
..d) How to find warm shelter
..e) Dangers of befriending 'holiday strangers'
..f) Risks of blended families at holiday time
..g) Dealing with disappointment - from elated wishes.

^^^ These are 'real' USA PUBLIC schools...

Sad, as there might be a few students in those classes who are there to LEARN academics, and NEED to learn.

Parents / teachers?

A significant number in our 300+ student homeschool group were (2) parent FT teachers, who chose to homeschool their own. Fortunately, this was in the USA, where they still have that choice, *temporarily.
As 3rd generation educators ourselves (as are all my siblings). We homeschooled and volunteered 3x / week in public schools. It's quite true and clear, that many of those students had no family / parent engagement with their education. Freedom that USA allows and encourages. +/-. Outcomes as expected.
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Old 12-12-2023, 10:44 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Your post is illogical. I've demonstrated that children spend approximately 70% to 75% of their time in their homes. It would follow than that the home/parents/family is 70% to 75% of the influence on children.

Yet, you seem to think that even if these are the primary influences that somehow schools ought to be able to step in and totally transform the lives of children who are not performing well academically. This may happen in a minority of situations. It doesn't happen most of the time.

Nor, do you explain how this is to occur. Do you think if we think if we eliminate teacher's unions that somehow higher quality people will want to become teachers and do a better job? Do you think teachers will work harder when they see themselves earning a salary that does not keep up with inflation?

I realize there is a lot of frustration out there in this country. There are millions of people who want some magical solution to complicated problems. Let's just snap our fingers and all the difficulty will be gone! Real life doesn't work that way. Improvement in education will only occur when the majority of parents take education more seriously than they have in the past.

Finally, I don't accept the idea that most parents parented on the level that I did. We had some issues with our kids performance in school that had to be addressed with both of them. Not everyone has either the capability (graduate level college degrees) or the financial resources we had. How many parents can afford expensive summer programs for children that get their skills up to par? The answer is a few do, but probably most don't.
Not sure what you're not understanding. I didn't say parents don't have an influence. I said most parents are doing their part of the social contract. You seem to be judging from an expectation way beyond what the normal parental role is when you talk about expensive summer programs and so forth. What do you think the parental expectation is? In other words you had the financial and educational resources to address shortcomings in the education system. I'd rather address those shortcomings directly so they are fixed for all students and not just the children of those who can afford alternatives.
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Old 12-12-2023, 10:59 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Why do you even think it's possible to give a percentage for something like that?

And which poster seriously said "all"?
I'm not the one who made the claim; see post 393. I'm asking how it was arrived at.

It's also not helpful when posters make a general claim about "it's the parent's fault" and then use some extreme examples of a subset of parents as if it were the normal. It just merely avoids addressing the issues within the education system that affect those normal kids in normal families by creating a picture of extremes.
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Old 12-12-2023, 11:10 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
Not really. As I said, the pedagogues keep changing up the system...and even the "facts." When my kids were in school, I got tired of saying, "Your teacher is wrong."

If you're going to do that, you might as well start homeschooling, because otherwise you're just going to tie the kids into knots.
.
That. Plus the teachers telling us NOT to help them with their homework because "we don't teach that and want them to do it the way we teach."

This was an especially big problem during the Common Core era when math teaching took off into some bizarro land where normal basic math techniques were discarded. Which BTW, that Common Core era was just in time for the most recent groups of kids who are now old enough to be taking the PISA tests to have been full Common Core during their developmental years.
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