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Old 12-12-2023, 12:04 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,801 posts, read 58,350,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
...Common Core era was just in time for the most recent groups of kids who are now old enough to be taking the PISA tests to have been full Common Core during their developmental years.

Yup... the USA EDU has been 'teaching-to-test' for decades.

And... still can't improve scores. (which may not = absorbed EDUCATION) only 'Taught-to-test', regardless of meaningful content or retention. Just get through the test!

It's not proven to be a WIN for USA.

I always ask our international teacher guests if they 'teach-to-test'
"We teach to EDUCATE!"
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Old 12-12-2023, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Yup... the USA EDU has been 'teaching-to-test' for decades.

And... still can't improve scores. (which may not = absorbed EDUCATION) only 'Taught-to-test', regardless of meaningful content or retention. Just get through the test!

It's not proven to be a WIN for USA.
Sort of what you'd do if you had to start from scratch getting a driver's license or take a Praxis.
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Old 12-12-2023, 12:14 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,801 posts, read 58,350,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Sort of what you'd do if you had to start from scratch getting a driver's license or take a Praxis.
Very wrong... each of those imply ' experiential / acquiring the needed knowledge and EXPERIENCE to PERFORM the requirement.

Not... "This is how you provide an answer that will be graded as acceptable."

Please don't send me any more employees who have been taught-to-test. They are not self-managing, confident, innovative, capable of acquiring knowledge by EXPERIENCE. They are robot clones who sit on their hands and wait for instruction. (Which has been 'real-life' for them for 18 yrs). Sorry, that doesn't cut it when you have to perform duties (that you may need to invent and implement the processes).

Life... does not come with instructions.
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Old 12-12-2023, 01:25 PM
 
Location: New York Area
35,340 posts, read 17,257,206 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
What percent of responsibility would you put on teachers for students not learning in school? At the most, I blame the system about 40%. The other 60% is on parents.

As a parent, I did all sorts of things. In grade school my son was struggling with reading and language so we enrolled in a special summer program that I had to drive him about forty miles a day round trip for. DW and I had to go over various programmed learnings with him too. We enrolled our daughter in other summer programs as well. We gave them a special place to do homework and made sure that it got done. Than there were Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts along with numerous trips and activities that had educational purposes. We attended parent/teacher conferences and took responsibility for contacting the teacher (rather than visa versa) when there was a problem. We made a point of speaking with correct grammar around the kids and correcting them when they did not.

I'll go on. When there were health issues like sicknesses or injuries those were addressed ASAP. The kids got good dentistry too.

I don't want a medal for parenting. My point is simply that for children to succeed in school parents have to be willing to do their part. We did ours. I suspect many parents do not do theirs. Those failures account for much of the reason why Johnny cannot read or do Algebra.
I think "the system" does not support teachers either. If nobody has your back it is hard to succeed.
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Old 12-12-2023, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,638 posts, read 2,792,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Very wrong... each of those imply ' experiential / acquiring the needed knowledge and EXPERIENCE to PERFORM the requirement.

Not... "This is how you provide an answer that will be graded as acceptable."

Please don't send me any more employees who have been taught-to-test. They are not self-managing, confident, innovative, capable of acquiring knowledge by EXPERIENCE. They are robot clones who sit on their hands and wait for instruction. (Which has been 'real-life' for them for 18 yrs). Sorry, that doesn't cut it when you have to perform duties (that you may need to invent and implement the processes).

Life... does not come with instructions.
When I was a hiring manager of engineers, farm boys (or girls) went straight to the head of the line, even if their degrees were from less impressive institutions and their GPAs might not have been at the tippy-top. Farmers have to solve problems. There's no hiding behind a team, there's no regurgitating canned solutions, there's no plug and chug.
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Old 12-12-2023, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,638 posts, read 2,792,504 times
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What I will say is that it's not that the culture has done a bad job of inspiring young people to enter technical fields. It's that it's done a spectacular job of discouraging them, by teaching them that these fields are only for ugly, socially inept, permanent virgins who live in ivory towers and have no friends. Furthermore, anyone who works hard and studies is a "joyless grind".

And then we see young people who come from cultures that don't have those biases (Chinese, Indians for example) and they do quite well indeed, because they don't get those "don't be a grind, don't be a nerd, don't be the awkward guy in the corner that no girl wants to talk to , don't be the fat chick that no guy wants to date" messages. Instead they get messages like "yeah, it's hard work but you get to create wealth, to be part of something bigger than yourself, and achieve everything you're capable of".
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Old 12-12-2023, 03:48 PM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,909,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
What I will say is that it's not that the culture has done a bad job of inspiring young people to enter technical fields. It's that it's done a spectacular job of discouraging them, by teaching them that these fields are only for ugly, socially inept, permanent virgins who live in ivory towers and have no friends. Furthermore, anyone who works hard and studies is a "joyless grind".

And then we see young people who come from cultures that don't have those biases (Chinese, Indians for example) and they do quite well indeed, because they don't get those "don't be a grind, don't be a nerd, don't be the awkward guy in the corner that no girl wants to talk to , don't be the fat chick that no guy wants to date" messages. Instead they get messages like "yeah, it's hard work but you get to create wealth, to be part of something bigger than yourself, and achieve everything you're capable of".
A lot of this.
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Old 12-12-2023, 04:27 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,801 posts, read 58,350,670 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
I think "the system" does not support teachers either. If nobody has your back it is hard to succeed.
No more excuses needed...

How many in secular employment had difficult managers and employers PLUS impossible tasks?
(And you never knew for sure if you would get a paycheck, or have a job tomorrow.)

Doesn't fly.
Gotta do what it takes... Or get out of the way. (Preferred to whining)

Ever been in the military?
Or an apprentice/ trainee?

It's a very tough world out here.
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Old 12-12-2023, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
When I was a hiring manager of engineers, farm boys (or girls) went straight to the head of the line, even if their degrees were from less impressive institutions and their GPAs might not have been at the tippy-top. Farmers have to solve problems. There's no hiding behind a team, there's no regurgitating canned solutions, there's no plug and chug.
And on the other hand, the year I taught at a rural school in western NYS, I had farm boys who had contests to see who could hold on to the electric fence the longest. The boy that told me he always won was MMR.
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Old 12-12-2023, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,125 posts, read 7,607,087 times
Reputation: 9910
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
somewhat related, there is the list of Columbia University students receiving their Master's degrees in Statistics from a few years ago:
How odd.
Our DIL is listed here. Smart. Works longer hours than DS. But different fields. She can take care of herself.
She does need to work on her housekeeping and cooking skills.
YRMV
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