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Old 12-18-2023, 05:51 PM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,088,313 times
Reputation: 45411

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Oh I will. Just hoping that you, having been in the field, might be more interested into digging deeper into the data.
I don't think Phetaroi would mind my saying that he gets a little tired of being set upon because he worked in the field of public education and defends what he agrees with. Perhaps, this accounts for why he doesn't feel a compunction to "dig deeply into the data" to refute every post he disagrees with.
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,125 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32526
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Oh I will. Just hoping that you, having been in the field, might be more interested into digging deeper into the data.
I might have been a dozen years ago, but I'm retired now. My job was getting deserving kids into TJ, not worrying about how TJ's data was for students who used to be in my school; after all, it was "the only game in town", so to speak. The county and our parents were very proud -- and satisfied -- with TJ.
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,125 posts, read 23,785,288 times
Reputation: 32526
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I don't think Phetaroi would mind my saying that he gets a little tired of being set upon because he worked in the field of public education and defends what he agrees with. Perhaps, this accounts for why he doesn't feel a compunction to "dig deeply into the data" to refute every post he disagrees with.
You're correct. No matter what data we pulled up, they'd just say the data collection was flawed...or something similar. The naysayers are not worried about education.
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Old 12-18-2023, 11:29 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,953 posts, read 7,323,119 times
Reputation: 9699
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
2002-2006. bias anecdote.
DS said that his 1st semester roommate (TJ) and the other high performing public HS (Sty) classmates weren't that special. {DS got to his eastern school from the west coast a few days late because of continuing 9/11 airline issues, so he missed the orientations and classmate "bonding" period. He didn't play computer or board (D&D) games and didn't have the HS clique from feeder schools. }
YSMV
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I might have been a dozen years ago, but I'm retired now. My job was getting deserving kids into TJ, not worrying about how TJ's data was for students who used to be in my school; after all, it was "the only game in town", so to speak. The county and our parents were very proud -- and satisfied -- with TJ.
oops.
nuther 2 degrees of separation.
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Old 12-19-2023, 08:21 AM
 
12,579 posts, read 8,809,297 times
Reputation: 34395
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I might have been a dozen years ago, but I'm retired now. My job was getting deserving kids into TJ, not worrying about how TJ's data was for students who used to be in my school; after all, it was "the only game in town", so to speak. The county and our parents were very proud -- and satisfied -- with TJ.
Why would you think I even care about TJ. Great for them. What I care about are the other 17000 high schools out there that AREN'T TJ. What is TJ doing they aren't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
You're correct. No matter what data we pulled up, they'd just say the data collection was flawed...or something similar. The naysayers are not worried about education.
Interesting, because that is pretty much every educator's response to any data showing problems in our education system such as the PISA. It's sad that you think everyone who disagrees with you isn't worried about education. We disagree with you because we are worried. But it does make it very easy for you to simply dismiss anything you don't agree with. Which is sad for someone in the learning business.
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Old 12-19-2023, 08:34 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,552 posts, read 57,471,708 times
Reputation: 45908
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Farmers are supposed to be terrific engineers? Japanese engineers are considered some of the best in the world. Given the urban nature of Japan, I suspect very few grew up on farms.
As an educator, you may consider being educated in how you think, and deliver.

If you were to be an engineer, perhaps you could work with engineers from around the world every day collaborating on invention. Be sure to work with Israeli engineers. ... And Chinese, and Taiwanese, and Malaysian, and Japanese, and Korean, and Dutch, and German, and Swiss, and Russian....

Educated responses always bring depth to a discussion.

Guesses and excuses.... not so much.
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Old 12-19-2023, 08:43 AM
 
14,300 posts, read 14,088,313 times
Reputation: 45411
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
As an educator, you may consider being educated in how you think, and deliver.

If you were to be an engineer, perhaps you could work with engineers from around the world every day collaborating on invention. Be sure to work with Israeli engineers. ... And Chinese, and Taiwanese, and Malaysian, and Japanese, and Korean, and Dutch, and German, and Swiss, and Russian....

Educated responses always bring depth to a discussion.

Guesses and excuses.... not so much.
I'm not an educator. From my many posts I'm surprised you don't remember my profession.

My sister was a teacher, subsequently earned a PhD, and than spent the last twenty years of her life as a college professor. I learned much from her. She gave up teaching in public schools because she saw it as a dead end career with limited salary potential and an inability to keep all of the parents of her students satisfied. I slowly began to realize the problem had more to do with parents and society than it did with either the teachers or their students.

To switch subjects again: What percentage of those foreign engineers you dealt with grew up on farms or drove bulldozers before they became engineers?
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Old 12-19-2023, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,208 posts, read 2,411,711 times
Reputation: 12221
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I'm not an educator. From my many posts I'm surprised you don't remember my profession.

My sister was a teacher, subsequently earned a PhD, and than spent the last twenty years of her life as a college professor. I learned much from her. She gave up teaching in public schools because she saw it as a dead end career with limited salary potential and an inability to keep all of the parents of her students satisfied. I slowly began to realize the problem had more to do with parents and society than it did with either the teachers or their students.

To switch subjects again: What percentage of those foreign engineers you dealt with grew up on farms or drove bulldozers before they became engineers?
Well, I don't know what your profession is, but I'm a practicing mechanical engineer with 40 years of experience, of which about 20 included being a hiring manager of engineers, while still having technical responsibilities at the same time.

In every case, I have always looked for hands-on experience. Pure theorists can present really well on paper, but you get them actually in the midst of actual design work and they can't get down to earth and do the job. Pure analysts are great if you have an "analysis department" where 20 people plug-and-chug all day every day based on the big thick notebook of analysis procedures that a real engineer laid out years ago (can you say "Boeing"?), but in a group of five where one day you're laying out a complex assembly on the screen and the next day you're reading patents to find the state of IP for a specifiic item and the next day you're running FEA stress analysis and the last two days of the week you're twisting wrenches to build up test prototypes and test stands, I've always needed full-service engineers.

For engineers educated in the US, farm kids rank high in the ability to visualize and execute practical solutions to design problems. Now even in the US, farm kids are a distinct minority. Foreign engineers' experience varies widely - many come from cultures where any kind of manual work is looked down upon, and others from cultures where there's a long standing respect for craftsmen artisans and technicians. So, for each person you interview, you've got to try to evaluate their individual capabilities. And if you've got a small group and require full-service engineers, you need people with that mindset. So called "engineers" who can only solve a problem once it's been defined by someone else, are not helpful in this environment.
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Old 12-19-2023, 09:08 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
868 posts, read 437,426 times
Reputation: 1960
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
NPR had a Morning Edition, 12/18/2023 segment on the attempt to stimulate HS and other older people to be chip manufacturing technicians.
That is not teaching science that is technical vocational training. Very different, more an attempt to create as many automatons as possible.
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Old 12-19-2023, 09:26 AM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,560,412 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertRat56 View Post
That is not teaching science that is technical vocational training. Very different, more an attempt to create as many automatons as possible.
I object to your reference to technical workers as "automatons," but frankly, technical vocational work is what the great majority of people are capable of doing. Most people cannot be "scientists."
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