Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 12-19-2023, 08:37 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,608 posts, read 28,714,640 times
Reputation: 25193

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Thank you for that post...particularly the bolded. It is not the only place in the country supporting science. Here's another with which I'm very familiar:

https://www.usnews.com/education/bes...chnology-20461
80.4% Minority Enrollment

66.4% Asian

LOL
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-19-2023, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,893 posts, read 24,404,506 times
Reputation: 32991
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Why would you think I even care about TJ. Great for them. What I care about are the other 17000 high schools out there that AREN'T TJ. What is TJ doing they aren't?



Interesting, because that is pretty much every educator's response to any data showing problems in our education system such as the PISA. It's sad that you think everyone who disagrees with you isn't worried about education. We disagree with you because we are worried. But it does make it very easy for you to simply dismiss anything you don't agree with. Which is sad for someone in the learning business.
Why would I think you cared about TJ? Maybe because you made 3 posts about my post about TJ.


"every educator's response"...how many educators have you had actual conversations with about PISA?

I'm pretty sure I know where you are coming from on education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,893 posts, read 24,404,506 times
Reputation: 32991
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
80.4% Minority Enrollment

66.4% Asian

LOL
So what?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 10:18 AM
 
12,863 posts, read 9,085,451 times
Reputation: 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Well, I don't know what your profession is, but I'm a practicing mechanical engineer with 40 years of experience, of which about 20 included being a hiring manager of engineers, while still having technical responsibilities at the same time.

In every case, I have always looked for hands-on experience. Pure theorists can present really well on paper, but you get them actually in the midst of actual design work and they can't get down to earth and do the job. Pure analysts are great if you have an "analysis department" where 20 people plug-and-chug all day every day based on the big thick notebook of analysis procedures that a real engineer laid out years ago (can you say "Boeing"?), but in a group of five where one day you're laying out a complex assembly on the screen and the next day you're reading patents to find the state of IP for a specifiic item and the next day you're running FEA stress analysis and the last two days of the week you're twisting wrenches to build up test prototypes and test stands, I've always needed full-service engineers.

For engineers educated in the US, farm kids rank high in the ability to visualize and execute practical solutions to design problems. Now even in the US, farm kids are a distinct minority. Foreign engineers' experience varies widely - many come from cultures where any kind of manual work is looked down upon, and others from cultures where there's a long standing respect for craftsmen artisans and technicians. So, for each person you interview, you've got to try to evaluate their individual capabilities. And if you've got a small group and require full-service engineers, you need people with that mindset. So called "engineers" who can only solve a problem once it's been defined by someone else, are not helpful in this environment.
Oh boy does that ring a bell. Exactly the situation I saw. Except ours was even worse. They were so lacking in skills they could no longer do work that was done 45 years ago. They weren't creating anything new; all they had to do was follow what was written down. And still couldn't do it. If someone else hasn't already programmed it in MATLAB where all they have to do is fill in number in the box, they're at a loss.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 10:23 AM
 
12,863 posts, read 9,085,451 times
Reputation: 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Why would I think you cared about TJ? Maybe because you made 3 posts about my post about TJ.
.
I asked those questions because you linked to a datasource I found interesting and wanted to get deeper into the data. My questions were about the datasource, not TJ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I'm pretty sure I know where you are coming from on education.
Please let me know what you think it is so we can correct any misunderstanding.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 10:39 AM
 
14,411 posts, read 14,334,102 times
Reputation: 45754
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Oh boy does that ring a bell. Exactly the situation I saw. Except ours was even worse. They were so lacking in skills they could no longer do work that was done 45 years ago. They weren't creating anything new; all they had to do was follow what was written down. And still couldn't do it. If someone else hasn't already programmed it in MATLAB where all they have to do is fill in number in the box, they're at a loss.
The problem I'm seeing is that we already have a dearth of people going into engineering.

Now, you are getting quite selective. They need a background as a "farm kid" or maybe someone who is from a family that were craftsmen.

Japanese engineers are famous for designing the best automobiles in the world. Again, I doubt there were many "farm kids" in this group.

I'm sure there are individuals who meet all or most of these measurements, but its going to be a small subset of individuals.

If business wants engineers badly enough they are probably going to have to take people who aren't up to this level and find some way to give them on the job training. Its either that or simply do without.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,553 posts, read 2,706,649 times
Reputation: 13131
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The problem I'm seeing is that we already have a dearth of people going into engineering.

Now, you are getting quite selective. They need a background as a "farm kid" or maybe someone who is from a family that were craftsmen.

Japanese engineers are famous for designing the best automobiles in the world. Again, I doubt there were many "farm kids" in this group.

I'm sure there are individuals who meet all or most of these measurements, but its going to be a small subset of individuals.

If business wants engineers badly enough they are probably going to have to take people who aren't up to this level and find some way to give them on the job training. Its either that or simply do without.
OJT can't fix someone who has no concept of, or interest in how things work.

And no one here has written what you're accusing us of having written. What we've actually SAID is that US farm kids are more likely to have the qualities that make good practicing engineers. Exactly no one has said that you have to come from a farm. Exactly no one has said that people from urban backgrounds, whether in the US or in other countries, can't make fine engineers. You're making that up out of whole cloth. Just stop.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,080 posts, read 7,541,093 times
Reputation: 9819
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I might have been a dozen years ago, but I'm retired now. My job was getting deserving kids into TJ, not worrying about how TJ's data was for students who used to be in my school; after all, it was "the only game in town", so to speak. The county and our parents were very proud -- and satisfied -- with TJ.
appreciate your work.
When we had ours in K-12, we came to recognize (3rd grade) how much effort the district system had put into encouraging DS and keeping him engaged.
Some had told me that a huge % of instructional dollars was spent on remedial and disadvantaged. A smaller % to the middle 1sigma, and a tiny amount on the more advanced students.
The biggest issue that I saw was that parents wanted their kid to be in advanced classes which had limited slots and to get perfect grades at the same time. That's a losing strategy because there will always be someone better.

Our school district tried a distributed approach for its 8 high schools: IB-AP in a central school. A math and language concentration in a central school. Performing arts, trades in an out lying schools. And 3 more generalized HS. All 6 schools also had the common core curriculums. 2 schools had alternative programs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,080 posts, read 7,541,093 times
Reputation: 9819
^ "2 schools had alternative programs"
Correction. Its 5 alternative HS, with 2 HS joint with the community college.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2023, 01:19 PM
 
12,863 posts, read 9,085,451 times
Reputation: 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
The problem I'm seeing is that we already have a dearth of people going into engineering.

Now, you are getting quite selective. They need a background as a "farm kid" or maybe someone who is from a family that were craftsmen.

Japanese engineers are famous for designing the best automobiles in the world. Again, I doubt there were many "farm kids" in this group.

I'm sure there are individuals who meet all or most of these measurements, but its going to be a small subset of individuals.

If business wants engineers badly enough they are probably going to have to take people who aren't up to this level and find some way to give them on the job training. Its either that or simply do without.
The dearth of people going into STEM is the topic of this thread. We do train. The question is, how far back do we go with the training? And what do we train them? We can't go back and teach fundamentals that should have been learned years before. Or how do we train "think like an engineer" mindset and habits needed to success? How do we break the "fill in the blank; mark the bubble; teach to the test" mindset that's been programmed into them for the 17 years they've been in the education system (K-12 + 4 college)? These kids aren't dumb; they're smart. But what we're asking them to do when they enter the engineering world is almost the opposite of every behavior, they've been taught their whole lives.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top