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Old 01-21-2024, 03:12 PM
 
12,586 posts, read 8,816,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
The actual code standards are widely published and available. In short, they are 50 sf per student in a dedicated lab, 60 sf per student in a combined lab/classroom, and a maximum of 24 students per teacher for supervising science labs with equipment, gas, hotplates, glassware, acids/bases, etc.

https://edcircuit.com/occupancy-load...2%80%93%202021)

My current classroom is about 1,000 sf and is a science classroom in the perimeters along the long walls have counters and cabinets and there are two sinks. The short walls are whiteboards in the back and projector/screen/teacher's desk in the front.

By code I should have no more than 16 students in the classroom to run a proper lab. My classes currently range from 24 students (smallest) to 34 students (largest).

We make the best of it and I try to do a lot of engaging labs. But there are some things I'm simply not going to do. For example dissections. I can't have 34 students milling about with scalpels in their hands bumping shoulders and elbows with each other and that is far too many freshmen to supervise and observe with sharp objects in their hands.

Likewise with only 2 sinks there are lots of chemistry labs I cannot run and with only lab counters on opposite sides of the room I can only reasonably have about 6-8 hotplates going at any one time. We can't spread out and do hotplates, microscopes, etc. in the center of the room on the student tables because there is no power and it would be a severe safety code violation to try and run extension cords from the walls to the center of the room for things like microscopes, hot plates, and other equipment that requires power.

What I am describing is actually pretty routine. This HS is not particularly overcrowded and was built in 1999 so isn't particularly old. I think the classroom was actually built as some sort of tech maker-space not a science lab because it has air jets for power tools around the perimeter but not gas for Bunsen burners. And two sinks is completely inadequate for many chemistry and biology labs.
I understand what you're saying. I was actually somewhat shocked that the lab in my old high school years ago was better equipped with gas, air, water, power, and sinks than the high school my kids attended. My old high school had all that at every workstation, and my kids' high school had that at two locations, with everything else done on tables in the middle of the room. I was also surprised at the lack of eyewash stations, showers, fume hoods, and basic PPE. They really didn't do any science in there.
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Old 01-21-2024, 03:28 PM
 
Location: WA
5,288 posts, read 7,581,577 times
Reputation: 8225
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
I understand what you're saying. I was actually somewhat shocked that the lab in my old high school years ago was better equipped with gas, air, water, power, and sinks than the high school my kids attended. My old high school had all that at every workstation, and my kids' high school had that at two locations, with everything else done on tables in the middle of the room. I was also surprised at the lack of eyewash stations, showers, fume hoods, and basic PPE. They really didn't do any science in there.
Science labs and equipment are very expensive and one of the first things to get the budget axe when a new HS is coming in over budget is the science labs. They magically seem to shrink down in size and lose essential features like expensive fire/heat/chemical resistant countertops being swapped out for ordinary Formica. Etc. I've seen it happen in various remodels and new construction projects over the years.
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Old 01-21-2024, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Science labs and equipment are very expensive and one of the first things to get the budget axe when a new HS is coming in over budget is the science labs. They magically seem to shrink down in size and lose essential features like expensive fire/heat/chemical resistant countertops being swapped out for ordinary Formica. Etc. I've seen it happen in various remodels and new construction projects over the years.
Because answers to the weaknesses in education shouldn't cost any money. At least that's what many here are telling us. Cheaper is better. Because, "they're just kids" (and yes, that's a quote).
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Old 01-22-2024, 10:00 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,563 posts, read 57,481,475 times
Reputation: 45927
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Because answers to the weaknesses in education shouldn't cost any money. ,,,.
Oh yes, certainly... it's the lack of money spent on USA education.
(More excuses, of course... but please don't look in the mirror as to how administrators choose to allocate their abundant riches)

These accomplished STEM contributors often had nothing (0) for funding.

Sometimes you need to work with what you have. inspiring youth to go into science and engineering?

Scientists;
Benjamin Banneker
first African-American scientist

Reid Barton
mathematician and programmer; first student to win four gold medals at the International Mathematical Olympiad

Wilson A. Bentley
"The Snowflake Man"

George Washington Carver
agricultural researcher

Augustin-Louis Cauchy
French mathematician

Pafnuty Chebyshev
Russian mathematician

Pierre Curie
discovered radium

Albert Einstein
theoretical physicist

Paul Erdos
Hungarian mathematician

Michael Faraday
electrochemist

Pierre de Fermat
greatest amateur mathematician in history

Evariste Galois
French mathematical prodigy

Sophie Germain
French mathematician

Pierre-Gilles de Gennes
Nobel Prize winner in physics

William Hamilton
Irish mathematician

Oliver Heaviside
electromagnetism researcher

Fred Hoyle
British physicist

T.H. Huxley
biologist, zoologist, Darwinist

Carl Jacobi
German mathematician

Ruth Lawrence
mathematician

Gilbert Newton Lewis
physical chemist

John D. Linsley
astrophysicist

Ada Lovelace
founder of scientific computing

Benoit Mandelbrot
pioneer in fractal geometry

Isaac Newton
English physicist, astronomer, mathematician

Blaise Pascal
French mathematician and philosopher

Charles Sanders Peirce
American logician, mathematician, philosopher

Henri Poincaré
French mathematician and man of letters

Joseph Priestley
father of modern chemistry

Bernhard Riemann
German mathematician

Erwin Schrodinger
Austrian physicist

Samuel C. C. Ting
Chinese American physicist

Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Russian rocket scientist

Inventors:
Alexander Graham Bell
invented the telephone

John Moses Browning
firearms inventor/designer

Peter Cooper
built the first modern skyscraper, the first commercial locomotive, and patented the first gelatin dessert which was later named Jell-O

Thomas Edison
invented the stock ticker, mimeograph, phonograph, and electric light bulb

Benjamin Franklin
invented the lightning rod

Elias Howe
invented sewing machine

William Lear
airplane creator

Cyrus McCormick
invented grain reaper

Guglielmo Marconi
developed radio

Eli Whitney
invented the cotton gin

Sir Frank Whittle
invented turbo jet engine

Orville and Wilbur Wright
brothers who built the first successful airplane

Medical;
Clara Barton
started the Red Cross

Elizabeth Blackwell
first woman in the U.S. to receive a medical degree

Mary Breckinridge
pioneering American midwife

John Locke
British philosopher, medical researcher and physician, taught by his father until age 14

Florence Nightingale
Nurse

Susan La Flesche Picotte
first American Indian woman physician

Albert Schweitzer
Physician

Mary Walker
Civil War physician; recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor

Educators:
Amos Bronson Alcott
innovative teacher, father of Louisa May Alcott

Susan Wise Bauer
English professor, College of William & Mary

Catharine Beecher
co-founder of the Hartford Female Seminary

George Washington Carver
African-American educator, Tuskegee Institute

Jill Ker Conway
first woman president of Smith College

Erik Demaine
associate professor of Computer Science at MIT

Timothy Dwight
President of Yale University

William Samuel Johnson
President of Columbia College

Kristin Maguire
Head of the South Carolina Board of Education

http://www.famoushomeschoolers.net/index.html

But this is a very minor list, compared to the more current contributors / job creators who chose to be self inspired and pursued it (and succeeded) - no expensive resources required.

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 01-22-2024 at 10:12 PM..
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Old 01-22-2024, 11:03 PM
 
Location: WA
5,288 posts, read 7,581,577 times
Reputation: 8225
Yes, and for every Albert Einstein or Madam Curie there are a million others slaving away in dead-end minimum wage jobs because they lack the education for more productive employment in the 21st Century.

This is the world that we actually live in if you aren't Albert Einstein.

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Old 01-22-2024, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,148 posts, read 23,799,416 times
Reputation: 32538
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Oh yes, certainly... it's the lack of money spent on USA education.
(More excuses, of course... but please don't look in the mirror as to how administrators choose to allocate their abundant riches)

These accomplished STEM contributors often had nothing (0) for funding.

Sometimes you need to work with what you have. inspiring youth to go into science and engineering?

Scientists;
Benjamin Banneker
first African-American scientist

Reid Barton
mathematician and programmer; first student to win four gold medals at the International Mathematical Olympiad

Wilson A. Bentley
"The Snowflake Man"

George Washington Carver
agricultural researcher

Augustin-Louis Cauchy
French mathematician

Pafnuty Chebyshev
Russian mathematician

Pierre Curie
discovered radium

Albert Einstein
theoretical physicist

Paul Erdos
Hungarian mathematician

Michael Faraday
electrochemist

Pierre de Fermat
greatest amateur mathematician in history

Evariste Galois
French mathematical prodigy

Sophie Germain
French mathematician

Pierre-Gilles de Gennes
Nobel Prize winner in physics

William Hamilton
Irish mathematician

Oliver Heaviside
electromagnetism researcher

Fred Hoyle
British physicist

T.H. Huxley
biologist, zoologist, Darwinist

Carl Jacobi
German mathematician

Ruth Lawrence
mathematician

Gilbert Newton Lewis
physical chemist

John D. Linsley
astrophysicist

Ada Lovelace
founder of scientific computing

Benoit Mandelbrot
pioneer in fractal geometry

Isaac Newton
English physicist, astronomer, mathematician

Blaise Pascal
French mathematician and philosopher

Charles Sanders Peirce
American logician, mathematician, philosopher

Henri Poincaré
French mathematician and man of letters

Joseph Priestley
father of modern chemistry

Bernhard Riemann
German mathematician

Erwin Schrodinger
Austrian physicist

Samuel C. C. Ting
Chinese American physicist

Konstantin Tsiolkovsky
Russian rocket scientist

Inventors:
Alexander Graham Bell
invented the telephone

John Moses Browning
firearms inventor/designer

Peter Cooper
built the first modern skyscraper, the first commercial locomotive, and patented the first gelatin dessert which was later named Jell-O

Thomas Edison
invented the stock ticker, mimeograph, phonograph, and electric light bulb

Benjamin Franklin
invented the lightning rod

Elias Howe
invented sewing machine

William Lear
airplane creator

Cyrus McCormick
invented grain reaper

Guglielmo Marconi
developed radio

Eli Whitney
invented the cotton gin

Sir Frank Whittle
invented turbo jet engine

Orville and Wilbur Wright
brothers who built the first successful airplane

Medical;
Clara Barton
started the Red Cross

Elizabeth Blackwell
first woman in the U.S. to receive a medical degree

Mary Breckinridge
pioneering American midwife

John Locke
British philosopher, medical researcher and physician, taught by his father until age 14

Florence Nightingale
Nurse

Susan La Flesche Picotte
first American Indian woman physician

Albert Schweitzer
Physician

Mary Walker
Civil War physician; recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor

Educators:
Amos Bronson Alcott
innovative teacher, father of Louisa May Alcott

Susan Wise Bauer
English professor, College of William & Mary

Catharine Beecher
co-founder of the Hartford Female Seminary

George Washington Carver
African-American educator, Tuskegee Institute

Jill Ker Conway
first woman president of Smith College

Erik Demaine
associate professor of Computer Science at MIT

Timothy Dwight
President of Yale University

William Samuel Johnson
President of Columbia College

Kristin Maguire
Head of the South Carolina Board of Education

Famous Homeschoolers - Famous Homeschool Parents

But this is a very minor list, compared to the more current contributors / job creators who chose to be self inspired and pursued it (and succeeded) - no expensive resources required.
"abundant riches"...what a crock
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Old 01-22-2024, 11:26 PM
 
12,586 posts, read 8,816,051 times
Reputation: 34426
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Yes, and for every Albert Einstein or Madam Curie there are a million others slaving away in dead-end minimum wage jobs because they lack the education for more productive employment in the 21st Century.

This is the world that we actually live in if you aren't Albert Einstein.
A version of that chart is what schools have been using for decades to push college for everyone. So let's think about it. Suppose you could magically give everyone in, let's say, the bottom three categories a bachelor's degree. Now what? What does that do to bachelor's degree jobs? There aren't magically three times more jobs than there were. So

a. Wages for those jobs go down due to more competition.
b. The bachelor's becomes the new minimum to get hired.
c. All those lower wage jobs still remain so you wind up with college degreed burger flippers and baristas.

And also consider the people in those categories. Many would much prefer a skilled trade to a college degree. To them the time in college is merely a delay in getting started working. And of the others, the reality is some aren't motivated to get a college degree, for a variety of reasons. Finally, there are always some who simply refuse to be educated.
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Old 01-23-2024, 01:20 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,563 posts, read 57,481,475 times
Reputation: 45927
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Yes, and for every Albert Einstein or Madam Curie there are a million others slaving away in dead-end minimum wage jobs because they lack the education for more productive employment in the 21st Century.

This is the world that we actually live in if you aren't Albert Einstein.
Lack of incentive or interest or initiative is not solved by pumping more dollars into a glutted industry who has proven numerous times it can not deliver.

The opportunites are numerous and available to all. (including FREE k-12 & higher EDU) And free lunches, after and before school care + EBT / SNAP.

It's never been easier to succeed.
(It's never been harder to find qualified employees who can count, read, write, reason)
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Old 01-23-2024, 01:58 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,563 posts, read 57,481,475 times
Reputation: 45927
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver;66338099

This is the world that we actually live in if you aren't Albert Einstein.
[url
https://www.bls.gov/emp/images/ep_chart_001.png[/url]
Certainly your chart demonstrates everyone should aspire to be Phd or Master level educated

in real life... everyday, here on the C-D Education(?) Forum we get clear examples of the tremendous success and solutions and benefit to our community and country that have come from our career academians.

No thanks.

I've witnessed a lot of good done in this civilazation, but never so much ineptness as clearly evidenced as right here.

There is no surprise as to why the USA EDU system is where it is today. The demonstrated competence here leaves no question.

Just browse the plentiful threads and identify the progress and SOLUTIONS. (If you can trod through the plentiful excuses)

These are the professionals, trained to educate (?).

Great job! (But, hey... it pays well and has very low unemployment statistics)

Unfortunately, that does not mean it (EDU) is of any value, except to perpetuate it's failure by pumping out more well paid, over-employed Phds.

Enjoy the plentifully paid party.
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Old 01-23-2024, 07:36 AM
 
28,563 posts, read 18,566,859 times
Reputation: 30802
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
A version of that chart is what schools have been using for decades to push college for everyone. So let's think about it. Suppose you could magically give everyone in, let's say, the bottom three categories a bachelor's degree. Now what? What does that do to bachelor's degree jobs? There aren't magically three times more jobs than there were. So

a. Wages for those jobs go down due to more competition.
b. The bachelor's becomes the new minimum to get hired.
c. All those lower wage jobs still remain so you wind up with college degreed burger flippers and baristas.

And also consider the people in those categories. Many would much prefer a skilled trade to a college degree. To them the time in college is merely a delay in getting started working. And of the others, the reality is some aren't motivated to get a college degree, for a variety of reasons. Finally, there are always some who simply refuse to be educated.
And because most people can't earn a STEM degree--"can't" as in "does not have the intellectual capacity," most of those additional degree holders will be in fields that will not pay off the cost of the degree.

There is a reckoning already approaching for such people today, such as we see in the current die-off of corporate DEI offices, which had been a plumb niche for such people.
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