Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-23-2024, 07:15 AM
 
14,455 posts, read 14,403,318 times
Reputation: 45954

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
A version of that chart is what schools have been using for decades to push college for everyone. So let's think about it. Suppose you could magically give everyone in, let's say, the bottom three categories a bachelor's degree. Now what? What does that do to bachelor's degree jobs? There aren't magically three times more jobs than there were. So

a. Wages for those jobs go down due to more competition.
b. The bachelor's becomes the new minimum to get hired.
c. All those lower wage jobs still remain so you wind up with college degreed burger flippers and baristas.

And also consider the people in those categories. Many would much prefer a skilled trade to a college degree. To them the time in college is merely a delay in getting started working. And of the others, the reality is some aren't motivated to get a college degree, for a variety of reasons. Finally, there are always some who simply refuse to be educated.
You're being very simplistic. You assume that having a degree and getting four years of higher education adds no value. In your mind, these people just simply compete for what already exists.

I think education largely pays for itself and improves the overall standard of living. That kid who went and got his biology or chemistry degree may invent a new medical treatment. That kid who got her degree in education may have found ways to educate groups with problems like dyslexia that were harder to educate in the past. The guy who went to law school may have persuaded courts to recognize new categories of legal rights. That English major may become a best selling published author that is read by millions of people. That new engineer may go on to hold a dozen or more patents in a field like information technology.

In reality, there always benefits to having a better trained and better educated labor force. The product is going to be better.

Reading this forum, I've learned certain names invariably come up and fall into a category I will "teacher haters". They somehow believe you can short change education when it comes to money and resources and obtain the same or better product. That notion would be laughable if we were talking about any other field.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-23-2024, 07:19 AM
 
28,715 posts, read 18,900,719 times
Reputation: 31029
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
Reading this forum, I've learned certain names invariably come up and fall into a category I will "teacher haters". They somehow believe you can short change education when it comes to money and resources and obtain the same or better product. That notion would be laughable if we were talking about any other field.
Nobody in this thread is a "teacher hater."

But some of us are skeptical of the exploits of the "education industry."

The Iron Law of Bureaucracy affects the education industry just as it affects all industries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 08:31 AM
 
12,897 posts, read 9,155,404 times
Reputation: 35056
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
You're being very simplistic. You assume that having a degree and getting four years of higher education adds no value. In your mind, these people just simply compete for what already exists.

I think education largely pays for itself and improves the overall standard of living. That kid who went and got his biology or chemistry degree may invent a new medical treatment. That kid who got her degree in education may have found ways to educate groups with problems like dyslexia that were harder to educate in the past. The guy who went to law school may have persuaded courts to recognize new categories of legal rights. That English major may become a best selling published author that is read by millions of people. That new engineer may go on to hold a dozen or more patents in a field like information technology.

In reality, there always benefits to having a better trained and better educated labor force. The product is going to be better.

Reading this forum, I've learned certain names invariably come up and fall into a category I will "teacher haters". They somehow believe you can short change education when it comes to money and resources and obtain the same or better product. That notion would be laughable if we were talking about any other field.
That's a lot of maybes and mights. But it doesn't just magically add more jobs for people with degrees than the economy needs. And the need for the non-degree jobs just doesn't disappear just because it's inconvenient. Just over a third of the adult population has college degrees. If everyone got one, that's almost triple the current number. Do you really think there will magically be triple the number of degree jobs? Or that fast food places will provide someone flipping burgers a higher salary just because they have a college degree?

No, this isn't about hating teachers. This is about certain realities that the education system refuses to acknowledge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 08:34 AM
 
Location: WA
5,508 posts, read 7,809,213 times
Reputation: 8702
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
A version of that chart is what schools have been using for decades to push college for everyone. So let's think about it. Suppose you could magically give everyone in, let's say, the bottom three categories a bachelor's degree. Now what? What does that do to bachelor's degree jobs? There aren't magically three times more jobs than there were. So

a. Wages for those jobs go down due to more competition.
b. The bachelor's becomes the new minimum to get hired.
c. All those lower wage jobs still remain so you wind up with college degreed burger flippers and baristas.

And also consider the people in those categories. Many would much prefer a skilled trade to a college degree. To them the time in college is merely a delay in getting started working. And of the others, the reality is some aren't motivated to get a college degree, for a variety of reasons. Finally, there are always some who simply refuse to be educated.
First of all, in 15+ years of teaching I've never seen such a chart presented to students in any form. And I have never seen schools denigrate different pathways other than college education. What schools actually do push is finishing HIGH SCHOOL and having a plan for the future beyond high school, whether that is traditional college, trade school, military, internships, family business, or whatever.

Secondly, it isn't a zero sum game. The economy is constantly changing. My oldest daughter is thriving in a profession that didn't exist 10 years ago. In part because she has a college education.

Thirdly, it is about individual decision-making. People should be making informed decisions about their futures. These are not some made-up numbers. They are straight from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. It is simply a fact that higher wages and lower unemployment are correlated with education. There is no avoiding that fact. Does that mean that HS dropouts can't get rich? Of course not. But they are tilting the odds against it if they choose to drop out from high school.

We can also do the opposite chart and look at incarceration rates by education level. Here is what one study found and you can find similar data everywhere. Look at the literacy rate of prison populations, for example

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 09:39 AM
 
28,715 posts, read 18,900,719 times
Reputation: 31029
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
First of all, in 15+ years of teaching I've never seen such a chart presented to students in any form. And I have never seen schools denigrate different pathways other than college education. What schools actually do push is finishing HIGH SCHOOL and having a plan for the future beyond high school, whether that is traditional college, trade school, military, internships, family business, or whatever.

Secondly, it isn't a zero sum game. The economy is constantly changing. My oldest daughter is thriving in a profession that didn't exist 10 years ago. In part because she has a college education.

Thirdly, it is about individual decision-making. People should be making informed decisions about their futures. These are not some made-up numbers. They are straight from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. It is simply a fact that higher wages and lower unemployment are correlated with education. There is no avoiding that fact. Does that mean that HS dropouts can't get rich? Of course not. But they are tilting the odds against it if they choose to drop out from high school.

We can also do the opposite chart and look at incarceration rates by education level. Here is what one study found and you can find similar data everywhere. Look at the literacy rate of prison populations, for example
You are suggesting that failing to be graduated from high school causes incarceration.

It's more likely that the same factors that cause high school graduation failure also cause incarceration.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,074 posts, read 24,578,993 times
Reputation: 33105
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
First of all, in 15+ years of teaching I've never seen such a chart presented to students in any form. And I have never seen schools denigrate different pathways other than college education. What schools actually do push is finishing HIGH SCHOOL and having a plan for the future beyond high school, whether that is traditional college, trade school, military, internships, family business, or whatever.

Secondly, it isn't a zero sum game. The economy is constantly changing. My oldest daughter is thriving in a profession that didn't exist 10 years ago. In part because she has a college education.

Thirdly, it is about individual decision-making. People should be making informed decisions about their futures. These are not some made-up numbers. They are straight from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. It is simply a fact that higher wages and lower unemployment are correlated with education. There is no avoiding that fact. Does that mean that HS dropouts can't get rich? Of course not. But they are tilting the odds against it if they choose to drop out from high school.

We can also do the opposite chart and look at incarceration rates by education level. Here is what one study found and you can find similar data everywhere. Look at the literacy rate of prison populations, for example
The bolded matches what I saw in secondary education.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,076 posts, read 7,283,131 times
Reputation: 17151
The high school I went to has on the front page of its website its mission statement - which has the words "career preparation" in it. Very prominently placed.

I was in HS 23 years ago and I was not a good student. No one pushed me to go to college other than my parents and grandparents. At school, I expressed interest in the military and was enthusiastically pointed in that direction.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 11:13 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,453 posts, read 18,551,303 times
Reputation: 35203
Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
The high school I went to has on the front page of its website its mission statement - which has the words "career preparation" in it. Very prominently placed.

I was in HS 23 years ago and I was not a good student. No one pushed me to go to college other than my parents and grandparents. At school, I expressed interest in the military and was enthusiastically pointed in that direction.
The push for college started under Bush and NCLB.

External forces also play a part. Offshoring is huge in tech and that sways many from going into the field.
Technology lets you be anywhere in the world and still get your job done.

Offshoring was not an issue when I was in college.
I first saw the impact start in the 90's with offshoring of post product services (bug fixes to existing products).
We were told it would free us up to work on future projects.

Today many of those "future products" are designed, coded and maintained in other countries

Engineering involving physical things like bridges is more protected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 11:54 AM
 
Location: WA
5,508 posts, read 7,809,213 times
Reputation: 8702
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
The push for college started under Bush and NCLB.
This is quite true. It actually began in Texas with Ross Perot in the 1980s and was continued by Bush when he was governor in the 1990s

Basically what happened is that the governor and legislature during the early 1980s decided to come to grips with why Texas was at the bottom of the heap in terms of many educational outcomes and they appointed Ross Perot to run a special legislative committee to travel around the state to investigate the state of Texas education. Ross Perot took up that task with a vengeance and many of the committee findings were implemented into law in the 1980s and then later in the 1990s when Bush was governor.

One finding was that schools in poor and minority communities were basically tracking students into vocational careers and not college. When they visited inner city schools in Black communities they found lots of things like hair salons doing cosmetology training, mechanic shops teaching auto mechanics, food kitchens teaching culinary arts and food service, etc. etc. But not much in the way of any college prep courses like AP classes. By contrast wealthy white schools in the suburbs were full of college prep stuff. Basically if you were Black or Hispanic then Texas schools were intentionally tracking you for vocational training whereas if you were a suburban white student then you were on a college track.

The response to this might have been an overreaction even though a correction was needed. But what the Perot Commission recommended and the legislature and governors implemented was basically the following:
  • Stripping a lot of vocational classes (like cosmetology training and auto mechanics) out of high schools and putting them into community colleges where students could still access them but wouldn't be tracked into them
  • Mandatory 4x4 graduation requirements for all students (4 years of math, English, science, and social studies)
  • Lots of new standardized testing to measure whether schools were meeting "college readiness" standards for their students and for each subpopulation (Black, Hispanic, low-income, etc.)
  • No pass, no play standards for athletics
  • A bunch of other small-bore things I'm forgetting.

A lot of those things began in Texas and then went national when Bush become president in 2000 and brought his people from Texas to run the DOE. But now we have come full circle and the new push is CTE (career & technical education)

There was probably an over-reaction away from vocational training that started in Texas and culminated with NCLB. But that was the story of where it started and why.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-23-2024, 12:35 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,453 posts, read 18,551,303 times
Reputation: 35203
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
T
A lot of those things began in Texas and then went national when Bush become president in 2000 and brought his people from Texas to run the DOE. But now we have come full circle and the new push is CTE (career & technical education)

There was probably an over-reaction away from vocational training that started in Texas and culminated with NCLB. But that was the story of where it started and why.
I was working in the schools when CTE was being implemented.
Basically bringing back vocational education.
But they wanted professionals this time to teach.
They also put the burden that they had to get a 4 year education degree and teaching certificate.

Well that did not go over well so they reworked the requirements.
You do need some pedagogy and teaching methodology but you don't need a 4 year education degree.

Did they expect a retired electrician to go back to school for 4 years when they already had 30+ years of electrical experience and a state license ?

I'm glad though that it worked out in the end.
I was in poor rural districts with very few real college bound students.
The CTE classes did them wonders
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:26 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top