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Old 01-23-2024, 02:44 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,625 posts, read 2,761,364 times
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Look, it's not about inspiring dumb kids to go into S&E: they'll wash out in the freshman Big Three. It's not about inspiring smart unmotivated juvies to go into S&E: they'll just screw off and flunk out. It's about inspiring smart motivated kids to consider SE fields rather than the default "must be lawyer, must be doctor, must get MFA" tracks.

And that's where the cultural engineer-hate and engineer-derision comes into play. What fifteen year old wants to go into a field that's uniformly portrayed in pop culture as inhabited by a bunch of people with no social skills, no sex life, no style, boring, weird, and so abstruse no one else can understand anything they say?
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Old 01-23-2024, 02:49 PM
 
Location: WA
5,499 posts, read 7,792,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I was working in the schools when CTE was being implemented.
Basically bringing back vocational education.
But they wanted professionals this time to teach.
They also put the burden that they had to get a 4 year education degree and teaching certificate.

Well that did not go over well so they reworked the requirements.
You do need some pedagogy and teaching methodology but you don't need a 4 year education degree.

Did they expect a retired electrician to go back to school for 4 years when they already had 30+ years of electrical experience and a state license ?

I'm glad though that it worked out in the end.
I was in poor rural districts with very few real college bound students.
The CTE classes did them wonders
I mean it does make more sense for former machinists and welders to teach metal shop than some 23 year old recent college grad from a school of education with zero experience in industry. But you also can't just dump a 60 year old retired machinist into a classroom and expect them to successfully pull it off.

The better approach would probably have been to pair new CTE teachers with veteran classroom teachers and have them team teach for a year or to and gain on-the-job experience that way. But that would cost schools more money so they don't do it.
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Old 01-23-2024, 04:16 PM
 
12,891 posts, read 9,135,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
First of all, in 15+ years of teaching I've never seen such a chart presented to students in any form. And I have never seen schools denigrate different pathways other than college education. What schools actually do push is finishing HIGH SCHOOL and having a plan for the future beyond high school, whether that is traditional college, trade school, military, internships, family business, or whatever.

Secondly, it isn't a zero sum game. The economy is constantly changing. My oldest daughter is thriving in a profession that didn't exist 10 years ago. In part because she has a college education.

Thirdly, it is about individual decision-making. People should be making informed decisions about their futures. These are not some made-up numbers. They are straight from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics. It is simply a fact that higher wages and lower unemployment are correlated with education. There is no avoiding that fact. Does that mean that HS dropouts can't get rich? Of course not. But they are tilting the odds against it if they choose to drop out from high school.

We can also do the opposite chart and look at incarceration rates by education level. Here is what one study found and you can find similar data everywhere. Look at the literacy rate of prison populations, for example
That chart (well, not that specific chart because the numbers changed with inflation, but the same information) was printed on the textbook covers they gave us starting in elementary school. I also never claimed the numbers were made-up. They are being used in a misleading manner to subtly or not so subtly steer students and parents toward a particular decision. Sure, everyone has a choice, but we've also been telling students and their parents that there is one right choice (college) and a bunch of wrong ones. The message for years has been "go to college." There used to be ads on TV stating "everyone can and should go to college." Even Education Week acknowledges the messaging on college.

Forty years ago 32 percent of counselors and teachers advised all students to go to college. Just 10 years later, in 1990, that percentage had doubled with roughly two-thirds of educators recommending college for all. Despite a recent surge in popularity for career and technical education, signs indicate that the college recommendation trend has increased over the last generation.
Horn & Moesta, Education Week 10 Mar 2020
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Old 01-23-2024, 04:30 PM
 
Location: TN/NC
35,164 posts, read 31,461,326 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redguard57 View Post
The high school I went to has on the front page of its website its mission statement - which has the words "career preparation" in it. Very prominently placed.

I was in HS 23 years ago and I was not a good student. No one pushed me to go to college other than my parents and grandparents. At school, I expressed interest in the military and was enthusiastically pointed in that direction.
We're around the same age. I'm from a less than affluent rural area.

All we heard was college, college, college. A lot of kids who certainly weren't "college material" were pushed in that direction.
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Old 01-23-2024, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Oregon, formerly Texas
10,075 posts, read 7,275,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious Conversation View Post
We're around the same age. I'm from a less than affluent rural area.

All we heard was college, college, college. A lot of kids who certainly weren't "college material" were pushed in that direction.
At my high school they didn't much care. I went to a fairly low income school where about 40% of the incoming 9th grade class didn't finish 12th grade. College was for the AP kids, who were like the top 10%. I was on the borderline of them, took some honors, some regular classes. The teachers in AP pushed college, but in the regular classes they did their best to try to keep you from dropping out and having babies at age 14-16 (at my school at that time, a fairly serious problem).

I would hear it from my family a lot. I actually had a huge fight with my dad circa my junior year he said something like "only losers don't go to college" and that I would destroy my life before it even started if I didn't go. I was quite convinced I wasn't college material. He was adamant I would go and threatened all kinds of consequences if I didn't. He also was convinced I needed to go to a college away from home; the community college or the local state branch commuter university were not good enough. We ended up compromising and I joined the national guard instead of the regular Army. Little did I know there wouldn't be much of a difference in the 00s.

Also church. At my parents' church, it was just expected that the youth would go to college and there was a lot of social pressure.

It kinda makes sense given their generational experience. Later on when I thought about it... my mom and dad came of age in the 60s and 70s. I was born in the early 80s. As I was growing up, factory and factory and family farm after family farm closed down. I didn't notice it but my parents did. It was when I was in high school, the last textile factory in the area closed. My mom especially... she grew up in Rhode Island and its manufacturing base was devastated from the late 70s to the 90s. Their friends who didn't go to college were pretty well screwed. The people from their cohorts that weathered that okay WERE the college graduates. It makes sense they would push it.

Today we have a different kind of problem. I think the big mistake we made as a country was thinking that college itself led to success, rather than acknowledging it's the other way around - successful people tend to go to college (but not exclusively).

For me personally, college was very important. I was on the borderline of college material and the reason for that was not my ability, but my attitude and work ethic. If I hadn't gone to college - I'd probably have have stayed on as an enlisted member of the military, and likely be a cop or security guard now. That's what a lot of my Army buddies ended up doing. Nothing wrong with that I guess, but it would be a very different life.

Last edited by redguard57; 01-23-2024 at 05:31 PM..
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Old 01-24-2024, 08:32 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,375 posts, read 10,711,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You are suggesting that failing to be graduated from high school causes incarceration.

It's more likely that the same factors that cause high school graduation failure also cause incarceration.
I think we can agree there is a correlation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
The push for college started under Bush and NCLB.

External forces also play a part. Offshoring is huge in tech and that sways many from going into the field.
Technology lets you be anywhere in the world and still get your job done.

Offshoring was not an issue when I was in college.
I first saw the impact start in the 90's with offshoring of post product services (bug fixes to existing products).
We were told it would free us up to work on future projects.

Today many of those "future products" are designed, coded and maintained in other countries

Engineering involving physical things like bridges is more protected.
I graduated from a large high school in 1973 in a poor, blue collar area. It was just assumed I would go to college. But I had always been in college prep courses with people who were also planning to go to college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
That's a lot of maybes and mights. But it doesn't just magically add more jobs for people with degrees than the economy needs. And the need for the non-degree jobs just doesn't disappear just because it's inconvenient. Just over a third of the adult population has college degrees. If everyone got one, that's almost triple the current number. Do you really think there will magically be triple the number of degree jobs? Or that fast food places will provide someone flipping burgers a higher salary just because they have a college degree?

No, this isn't about hating teachers. This is about certain realities that the education system refuses to acknowledge.
All good points in the first paragraph. I don't understand the "realities" you are referring to in your last sentence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
I mean it does make more sense for former machinists and welders to teach metal shop than some 23 year old recent college grad from a school of education with zero experience in industry. But you also can't just dump a 60 year old retired machinist into a classroom and expect them to successfully pull it off.

The better approach would probably have been to pair new CTE teachers with veteran classroom teachers and have them team teach for a year or to and gain on-the-job experience that way. But that would cost schools more money so they don't do it.
I think there are 60 year old machinists and other skilled trades with teaching experience. There are many apprentice training programs that employ these people. I assume they create their own instructors with on-the-job teaching experience.

Last edited by villageidiot1; 01-24-2024 at 09:09 AM..
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Old 01-24-2024, 09:01 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,878,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
You are suggesting that failing to be graduated from high school causes incarceration.

It's more likely that the same factors that cause high school graduation failure also cause incarceration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I think we can agree there is a coorelation.
No, I would not agree to any "correation" between failing to be graduated from high school and incarceration, because as soon as someone states that they are corelated, someone else is going to take that for action and attempt to resolve incarceration by "graduate them by any means" methods...which is exactly what's happening,

And that is a mistake.

They are parallel, but they aren't correlated.
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Old 01-24-2024, 09:15 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,375 posts, read 10,711,260 times
Reputation: 12712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph_Kirk View Post
No, I would not agree to any "correlation" between failing to be graduated from high school and incarceration, because as soon as someone states that they are corelated, someone else is going to take that for action and attempt to resolve incarceration by "graduate them by any means" methods...which is exactly what's happening,

And that is a mistake.

They are parallel, but they aren't correlated.
I agree with your point about not "graduating them by any means." There is too much of that already.

My point is there is a simple relationship between education and incarceration, but that does not imply cause and effect.

Last edited by villageidiot1; 01-24-2024 at 09:44 AM..
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Old 01-24-2024, 09:19 AM
 
28,711 posts, read 18,878,579 times
Reputation: 31014
Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
I agree with you point about not "graduating them by any means." There is too much of that already.

My point is there is a simple relationship between education and incarceration, but that does not imply cause and effect.
It's like the relationship between Interstate 80 and Interstate 90.
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Old 01-24-2024, 09:30 AM
 
12,891 posts, read 9,135,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
All good points in the first paragraph. I don't understand the "realities" you are referring to in your last sentence.
.
Let's see if I can explain with a few examples. Certainly not all inclusive.

a. Not every kid is going to learn. We spend 80% of the effort on the bottom 20% of students. Imagine the benefits if we put that same effort into the top 20%.

b. Don't be afraid to remove the problem kids from the classroom. Establish discipline.

c. Parents are not the enemy. Don't make them into the enemy. They should be your best allies.

d. Disagreement with how the education system is run is NOT the same as "hating teachers." It's an easy way to discard important information by simply labeling it as "hating teachers."

There are a lot of subsets and breakouts associated with just the first two. Many of the discussions here on CD are related to how one of those subsets in the first two are handled. Which brings up c & d. Great way to shut down any discussion of a & b.
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