Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-24-2024, 06:48 PM
 
8,102 posts, read 4,008,230 times
Reputation: 15172

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
Yes, and for every Albert Einstein or Madam Curie there are a million others slaving away in dead-end minimum wage jobs because they lack the education for more productive employment in the 21st Century.
Regarding the bold... Do you have any evidence that lack of education is the root cause instead of, say, lack of intelligence, lack of initiative, and an abundant social safety net?

Last edited by moguldreamer; 01-24-2024 at 07:11 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-24-2024, 06:56 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,101 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
We had tracking too..for Math/Reading/Grammar but we took placement tests at the beginning of the year.
Each grade had 3 classes and after the testing kids got assigned to a class.

I didn't realize that was what tracking was until a long time later...
And here we were lamenting that we didn't get into the class with 2 teachers.

From first to third there was always a class with 2 teachers.
I'm assuming those were the kids with the really low placement scores.

After that I don't remember.
Interesting. Never heard of that being done.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2024, 07:37 PM
 
Location: WA
5,517 posts, read 7,815,578 times
Reputation: 8713
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Regarding the bold... Do you have any evidence that lack of education is the root cause instead of, say, lack of intelligence, lack of initiative, and an abundant social safety net?
It's not lack of intelligence.

I would say in vast segments of society people get trapped in poverty, single parenting, debt, family obligations, and all kinds of things that make getting a legitimate college education a huge hurdle. So yes, the lack of a social safety net is a big part for certain.

Everyone's story is unique but the stories all start to rhyme.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2024, 08:14 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,474 posts, read 18,573,805 times
Reputation: 35224
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Interesting. Never heard of that being done.
Catholic school- NYC
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-24-2024, 08:40 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,372 posts, read 10,727,073 times
Reputation: 12713
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
We had tracking too..for Math/Reading/Grammar but we took placement tests at the beginning of the year.
Each grade had 3 classes and after the testing kids got assigned to a class.

I didn't realize that was what tracking was until a long time later...
And here we were lamenting that we didn't get into the class with 2 teachers.

From first to third there was always a class with 2 teachers.
I'm assuming those were the kids with the really low placement scores.

After that I don't remember.
Going to elementary school in the 1960s, we had no tracking. It wasn't possible because we typically had two classes per grade in each elementary school. I think students were assigned randomly. We also did no have any classes with co-teachers. I have not seen that in any elementary school and I have subbed for elementary learning support teachers. Our elementary schools were bare bones. We shared a principal and nurse with two other elementary schools. We got a secretary when I was in 6th grade. Before that, the only full-time person in the school other than teachers was a janitor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2024, 05:41 AM
 
19,969 posts, read 18,268,311 times
Reputation: 17413
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
It's not lack of intelligence.

I would say in vast segments of society people get trapped in poverty, single parenting, debt, family obligations, and all kinds of things that make getting a legitimate college education a huge hurdle. So yes, the lack of a social safety net is a big part for certain.

Everyone's story is unique but the stories all start to rhyme.
Proportionally, the US is the #2 or #3 social welfare spender in the world, at not quite 30% of GDP. Trailing only France and possibly Italy - varies a little over time - per the long running OECD SOCX Index.

There is absolutely no path from there to, "the lack of a social safety net."

And college success and beyond is strongly influenced by intelligence.


ETA - forgot the link
https://www.oecd.org/social/expenditure.htm


ETA II - on a per capita basis the US is usually around number #10. Ahead of Switzerland, Canada, Australia, The UK, Japan, Iceland, The Netherlands, New Zealand etc.

The only countries that spend prodigiously more per capita are Luxembourg and Norway.......we do not have the resources to match either. The people of Luxembourg are probably the most hardheaded/smartest people on Earth.....they've morphed a tiny - about the size of The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex -, low population, relatively resource poor patch of land into an international banking and financial powerhouse. Norway is the world's natural resources lottery winner.

Last edited by EDS_; 01-25-2024 at 06:40 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2024, 07:19 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
Reputation: 35066
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Regarding the bold... Do you have any evidence that lack of education is the root cause instead of, say, lack of intelligence, lack of initiative, and an abundant social safety net?
You've said the hidden part out loud. One of those things we don't want to admit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by villageidiot1 View Post
Going to elementary school in the 1960s, we had no tracking. It wasn't possible because we typically had two classes per grade in each elementary school. I think students were assigned randomly. We also did no have any classes with co-teachers. I have not seen that in any elementary school and I have subbed for elementary learning support teachers. Our elementary schools were bare bones. We shared a principal and nurse with two other elementary schools. We got a secretary when I was in 6th grade. Before that, the only full-time person in the school other than teachers was a janitor.
You pretty much described my elementary school exactly. The only real difference is instead of sharing a principal with another school, our principle was also a first grade teacher. In contrast my kids' elementary was roughly the same size with about the same number of teachers. But ...

... it had more staff than teachers. A principal. Two (sometimes three) assistant principals. Two secretaries, plus an attendance secretary and a receptionist. And a whole passel of aides and assistants, totaling more than the number of teachers. In one elementary school. Multiply that times the number of elementary schools, middle schools, and high school in the district and you get a huge overhead cost. One of the big complaints of the teachers this year was they got no raise, but the district somehow found the money to hire five more assistant principals.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2024, 08:56 AM
 
19,969 posts, read 18,268,311 times
Reputation: 17413
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You've said the hidden part out loud. One of those things we don't want to admit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by moguldreamer View Post
Regarding the bold... Do you have any evidence that lack of education is the root cause instead of, say, lack of intelligence, lack of initiative, and an abundant social safety net?

1. IQ tests are the second highest confidence tests in all of psychology. Private K-12 schools across the country use something called the CATS to test screen applicants. The CATS for school kids is an IQ near 1:1 proxy per formal IQ tests. Further, the CATS people have developed very similar tests under different names.

2. Many dislike and minimize intelligence and IQ because varying intelligence greatly torpedos prevailing notions of equity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2024, 10:01 AM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,372 posts, read 10,727,073 times
Reputation: 12713
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
You pretty much described my elementary school exactly. The only real difference is instead of sharing a principal with another school, our principle was also a first grade teacher. In contrast my kids' elementary was roughly the same size with about the same number of teachers. But ...

... it had more staff than teachers. A principal. Two (sometimes three) assistant principals. Two secretaries, plus an attendance secretary and a receptionist. And a whole passel of aides and assistants, totaling more than the number of teachers. In one elementary school. Multiply that times the number of elementary schools, middle schools, and high school in the district and you get a huge overhead cost. One of the big complaints of the teachers this year was they got no raise, but the district somehow found the money to hire five more assistant principals.
Amazing how the overhead has increased. My school district had 10-12 elementary schools, two junior highs, a high school, and almost 8,000 students. I don't know how many people were in the district office, but there were no assistant superintendents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-25-2024, 06:28 PM
 
Location: WA
5,517 posts, read 7,815,578 times
Reputation: 8713
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Proportionally, the US is the #2 or #3 social welfare spender in the world, at not quite 30% of GDP. Trailing only France and possibly Italy - varies a little over time - per the long running OECD SOCX Index.

There is absolutely no path from there to, "the lack of a social safety net."

And college success and beyond is strongly influenced by intelligence.


ETA - forgot the link
https://www.oecd.org/social/expenditure.htm


ETA II - on a per capita basis the US is usually around number #10. Ahead of Switzerland, Canada, Australia, The UK, Japan, Iceland, The Netherlands, New Zealand etc.

The only countries that spend prodigiously more per capita are Luxembourg and Norway.......we do not have the resources to match either. The people of Luxembourg are probably the most hardheaded/smartest people on Earth.....they've morphed a tiny - about the size of The Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex -, low population, relatively resource poor patch of land into an international banking and financial powerhouse. Norway is the world's natural resources lottery winner.
It's not about spending. It's about what the money buys.

Most of the US budget for social welfare spending goes to two programs: Medicare and Social Security. With Medicaid taking third place. None of which do anything to help a young single mom afford college since:

1. The US has no subsidized system of preschool or daycare unlike most other modern countries
2. The US has no subsidized system of before/after school care unlike most other modern countries
3. The US has the highest tuition and fees for public universities in the world
4. The US has incredibly meager parental and family leave requirements for employers compared to the rest of the world
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:17 PM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top