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Old 01-31-2024, 10:22 AM
 
12,904 posts, read 9,164,788 times
Reputation: 35066

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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Okay, we get it. You're anti-union. The organizations that built middle class America.

I was a union rep for my school in Maryland for 2 years. Each year the union would come up with about a dozen proposals to start negotiations. Half would be 'educational stuff', the other half would be pay and benefits. Once we got into real negotiations, the 'educational stuff' usually disappeared and the almost total focus was on pay and benefits. Not once in 2 years in a union state did I, as a building rep, have to become engaged in anything about educational policies. The issues were always pay, benefit, or working conditions considerations, and very few of those.

In a non-union state the next 20 years, as a school administrator, I had to deal with the local teacher 'organization' a total of...wait for it...once...in 20 years, once...and the teacher organization actually backed me, not the complaining teacher.

That's just to put a littler perspective on it.
The sad part is, you don't get it at all. Not even close. You were a principal. That's high enough in the organizational ladder to see the bigger picture that's going on. Nothing I said had anything to do with local job negotiations but policy. In the end, everything we're talking about here, whether we do a good or bad job of inspiring youth, is a result of or "collateral damage" from, policies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I've read tnff's comments per all this for a while now. He does not simply blame teachers and pro-educators for our current and it seems worsening K-12 problems.

That said when all of The Department of Defense, Colleges and Universities, hiring managers and business leaders across the country ID poor math and science skills as a pervasive problem per recent high school grads we need to assess education top to bottom.

texasdriver posted PISA test results by country and race elsewhere. I suggest everyone here spend a couple of open minded minutes looking at the results.

IMO a place to start would be vigorous tracking. ID the kids who have little shot due to disinterested parents, low IQ, behavioral issues whatever and do the very best for this group that we can but separate them from kids who demonstrate more better results.

Teacher pay. I'd be willing to pay for better teachers but I'm not willing to pay weak performers more. For a long time teachers have been lowest rung of college graduates per any large rising professional group. A while back someone posted GRE results by major and let's just say it painted an ugly picture around teachers.

Funding........all of the per pupil funding metrics teaching advocates throw out there fall apart when we compare state vs. state spending and outcomes. Further, the same applies when we examine say US Black PISA scores which are bracketed by kids from countries that spend fractions of what we spend per kid (FE Moldova sports an average annual income of around $12K, Moldova spends around $3,000 US per pupil per year).

Until US public K-12 makes some serious changes look for more and more motivated parents to take the private, homeschool or charter paths.
Great comments. Major STEM agencies and professional societies all have concerns about STEM education and it's impact on their mission or field of study. Also agree that tracking and separating groups and doing the bests we can while not holding back the higher performers. I'm also, and have stated on here before, that I'm willing to pay more for better teachers. That's another area where people use Finland as an example, but I don't think most educators want to have the same standards to get into the education schools as Finland has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
What part don't you understand? Have you consumed any products of US popular culture in the last 40 years? The smart kids who want to pursue science, math, engineering are UNIFORMLY portrayed as "geeks, nerds, autistic, Aspergers" - ugly, no social skills, undesirable to the opposite sex, awkward, unable to converse on ordinary subjects, thick black rimmed glasses mended with adhesive tape, two left feet on the dance floor, completely inept at sports, and just generally "weirdos" - which NO kid wants to be. Does that sound like a portrayal that will attract, or repel, smart kids who could pursue their interests in SE subjects, or who could do something else?
Great point as well. I can watch Big Bang Theory and on the one hand laugh at how they portray us as Sheldon (socially clueless & arrogant), Howard (socially clueless esp with women), Koothrappali (socially clueless and can't even speak around women). Or, for girls, given what teen years for girls already are like, what girl wants to grow up to be like Amy (female Sheldon) or Bernadette (squeaky voice married to Howard -- ick!).
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:23 AM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,473 posts, read 18,573,805 times
Reputation: 35224
I disagree that the Fed is just a money passthrough.

Common Core created a new curriculum based on Vygotsky's theory when US education previous to that was based on Piaget.
And it appears to me that test scores are dropping quicker under Vygotsky ideology.
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
The sad part is, you don't get it at all. Not even close. You were a principal. That's high enough in the organizational ladder to see the bigger picture that's going on. Nothing I said had anything to do with local job negotiations but policy. In the end, everything we're talking about here, whether we do a good or bad job of inspiring youth, is a result of or "collateral damage" from, policies.


...


No, I get it. But I think all groups of people should be free to influence our system, including teachers and other educators. And you don't like that. You think educators are sort of slaves to the tax payers. Well guess what...we pay taxes, too. We are not second class citizens. Democracy, including when it comes to education, is messy.

Believe it or not, we even get to vote.
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:18 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,804 posts, read 58,350,670 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I disagree that the Fed is just a money passthrough.

... it appears to me that test scores are dropping quicker under Vygotsky ideology.
That would be an interesting analysis as to root cause.

It will be obvious, and very simple to correct. (If edu had any interest or accountability for meeting it's basic deliverable to 'educate'). Which is not a priority when you choose to dance around the issue, divert attention away from yourself. And your obvious failures.
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:22 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,804 posts, read 58,350,670 times
Reputation: 46311
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
..... We are not second class citizens. ...
Believe it or not, we even get to vote.
Painfully obvious on both counts.
1) blame shifting - excuses (of course)
2) voting! (As if my cush gravy job and lifelong pension depends on it)

Is there a problematic trend here?
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
51,097 posts, read 24,599,714 times
Reputation: 33124
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Painfully obvious on both counts.
1) blame shifting - excuses (of course)
2) voting! (As if my cush gravy job and lifelong pension depends on it)

Is there a problematic trend here?
A life-long pension that I paid hundreds of dollars into every single month that I worked, that sat there earning interest for the pension fund. Along with health insurance that I paid into every single month I worked...and continue to do so in retirement.

You must be used to pretty thin gravy. But yes, very cushy job in my office with asbestos floor tiles and cinder block walls, office furniture that was 40 years old, and eventually a carpet (that I paid for on my own personal credit card). Yup a real cushy, gravy job.
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Old 01-31-2024, 01:16 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,473 posts, read 18,573,805 times
Reputation: 35224
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
That would be an interesting analysis as to root cause.

It will be obvious, and very simple to correct. (If edu had any interest or accountability for meeting it's basic deliverable to 'educate'). Which is not a priority when you choose to dance around the issue, divert attention away from yourself. And your obvious failures.
It may take a long time.

Vygosky - learning is based on culture and social interaction..a collective effort.
Piaget -learning is based on cognitive ability ...an individual effort

And it works great in Finland because they are homogenous with a single culture and two official languages.
The US is multi-cultured with no official language.

I think CRE (Culturally Responsive Education), which is fairly new, is trying to address that and still stay in the framework of Vygotsky.

Time will tell if it works out. I try to look at it from the big picture rather then details like school lunch.
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Old 01-31-2024, 02:00 PM
 
19,968 posts, read 18,268,311 times
Reputation: 17412
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post

And it works great in Finland because they are homogenous with a single culture and two official languages.
The US is multi-cultured with no official language.


Fair points but when Finland's K-12 system was one of the couple of worst in the first world, into the 1970s. It also had a dominant culture and two official languages.
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Old 01-31-2024, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,638 posts, read 2,792,504 times
Reputation: 13339
Again, I will try to re-focus the posters to the actual subject here.

We all know in general US public primary and secondary education is a disaster, except for a few wealthy suburbs where the parents basically take the thing over and humiliate the administration into educating the kids. Kids in the central cities are SOL. We all know this.

But the subject of this thread, as opposed to the subject of the many threads on the subject ”everything that's wrong with public education in the US”, is about why US students are avoiding science and engineering.

What the public school systems do with IQ 90 students, or those who're going to end up in prison no matter what we do, is irrelevant to the subject of this particular thread. Those kids aren't candidates for engineering school anyway. No matter how much money you throw at it, the dull-normal or mentally retarded child who's reading on a second grade level at age 16 is NOT going to master partial differential equations, or understand the design of long distance transmission lines, or be able to calculate reaction rates and yields for the synthesis of polyalkylene glycol lubricants.

What we need to tackle in this thread is why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering, are instead choosing different career paths and education paths.
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Old 01-31-2024, 02:34 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,473 posts, read 18,573,805 times
Reputation: 35224
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Fair points but when Finland's K-12 system was one of the couple of worst in the first world, into the 1970s. It also had a dominant culture and two official languages.
But this is 2024, not 1970.

The past is over and done with...those people in charge are all gone.
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