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Old 01-31-2024, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,777 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Again, I will try to re-focus the posters to the actual subject here.

We all know in general US public primary and secondary education is a disaster, except for a few wealthy suburbs where the parents basically take the thing over and humiliate the administration into educating the kids. Kids in the central cities are SOL. We all know this.

But the subject of this thread, as opposed to the subject of the many threads on the subject ”everything that's wrong with public education in the US”, is about why US students are avoiding science and engineering.

What the public school systems do with IQ 90 students, or those who're going to end up in prison no matter what we do, is irrelevant to the subject of this particular thread. Those kids aren't candidates for engineering school anyway. No matter how much money you throw at it, the dull-normal or mentally retarded child who's reading on a second grade level at age 16 is NOT going to master partial differential equations, or understand the design of long distance transmission lines, or be able to calculate reaction rates and yields for the synthesis of polyalkylene glycol lubricants.

What we need to tackle in this thread is why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering, are instead choosing different career paths and education paths.
No, we don't all know that.

Instead of asking educators why -- particularly since many of you want to gag educators -- why don't you ask students why they don't choose science and engineering.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,514 posts, read 2,660,480 times
Reputation: 13009
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
No, we don't all know that.

Instead of asking educators why -- particularly since many of you want to gag educators -- why don't you ask students why they don't choose science and engineering.
So you think US public primary and secondary education is just A-OK, all peachy-keen? You must be the only one.

It's still irrelevant to the main subject of this thread. All the intervention in the world isn't going to turn mentally retarded kids, emotionally disturbed kids, or kids who're engaged with the criminal justice system at 10, into engineers and scientists. The thread is about why kids who are going to be successful in life and their careers, because of their combination of intelligence, drive, focus, and stability, don't choose SE careers. That's what this thread is about. And I continue to maintain it's cultural.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:17 PM
 
19,777 posts, read 18,064,624 times
Reputation: 17262
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
But this is 2024, not 1970.

The past is over and done with...those people in charge are all gone.

The overarching point is their system was roughly as poor performing as our system is now. Finland's governmental and educational thought leaders took corrective action that is still paying dividends today.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:29 PM
 
19,777 posts, read 18,064,624 times
Reputation: 17262
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Again, I will try to re-focus the posters to the actual subject here.

We all know in general US public primary and secondary education is a disaster, except for a few wealthy suburbs where the parents basically take the thing over and humiliate the administration into educating the kids. Kids in the central cities are SOL. We all know this.

But the subject of this thread, as opposed to the subject of the many threads on the subject ”everything that's wrong with public education in the US”, is about why US students are avoiding science and engineering.

What the public school systems do with IQ 90 students, or those who're going to end up in prison no matter what we do, is irrelevant to the subject of this particular thread. Those kids aren't candidates for engineering school anyway. No matter how much money you throw at it, the dull-normal or mentally retarded child who's reading on a second grade level at age 16 is NOT going to master partial differential equations, or understand the design of long distance transmission lines, or be able to calculate reaction rates and yields for the synthesis of polyalkylene glycol lubricants.

What we need to tackle in this thread is why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering, are instead choosing different career paths and education paths.


I disagree significantly. What the system does to and with kids at and near the bottom helps explain why we do so poorly in math and science per kids in say the upper third.


More later.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:46 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,073 posts, read 18,237,901 times
Reputation: 34949
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
The overarching point is their system was roughly as poor performing as our system is now. Finland's governmental and educational thought leaders took corrective action that is still paying dividends today.
And it works in a homogenous environment.
Vygotsky goes back to the 1920's...most societies were homogenous
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:49 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,777 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
So you think US public primary and secondary education is just A-OK, all peachy-keen? You must be the only one.

It's still irrelevant to the main subject of this thread. All the intervention in the world isn't going to turn mentally retarded kids, emotionally disturbed kids, or kids who're engaged with the criminal justice system at 10, into engineers and scientists. The thread is about why kids who are going to be successful in life and their careers, because of their combination of intelligence, drive, focus, and stability, don't choose SE careers. That's what this thread is about. And I continue to maintain it's cultural.
No, I didn't say that at all.

I don't really expect MMR and ED kids to end up being engineers and scientists. Why are you even bringing such a ridiculous notion into the discussion. I don't expect many 'street kids' to become engineers and scientists, either.

You can't have it both ways. It seems as if your saying teachers/counselors/administrators should push kids into science and engineering. Oh...so now you want teachers to push something?

It should be up to the student and his or her parents to be exploring potential career plans. Teachers and other school personnel should chip in when asked for advice and career exploration tools.

In high school I didn't want or need school personnel to tell me what I should be when I grow up. That was my choice...a choice that would lead me to a particular work field where I'd be for 30 or more years.
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Old 01-31-2024, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,777 posts, read 24,277,952 times
Reputation: 32918
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
The overarching point is their system was roughly as poor performing as our system is now. Finland's governmental and educational thought leaders took corrective action that is still paying dividends today.
Could you outline what it is that they did?
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Old 01-31-2024, 04:39 PM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,295,538 times
Reputation: 45726
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
That would be an interesting analysis as to root cause.

It will be obvious, and very simple to correct. (If edu had any interest or accountability for meeting it's basic deliverable to 'educate'). Which is not a priority when you choose to dance around the issue, divert attention away from yourself. And your obvious failures.
When it comes to educating, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
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Old 01-31-2024, 04:41 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,073 posts, read 18,237,901 times
Reputation: 34949
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Could you outline what it is that they did?
The major thing they did was to become a welfare state. (not US type welfare)
Government programs and such were put into place in the 60's.

Finland is an excellent example of what a textbook "welfare state" should be.

It's an interesting read how they made all those changes.
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Old 01-31-2024, 04:53 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,379 posts, read 10,654,521 times
Reputation: 12704
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
What part don't you understand? Have you consumed any products of US popular culture in the last 40 years? The smart kids who want to pursue science, math, engineering are UNIFORMLY portrayed as "geeks, nerds, autistic, Aspergers" - ugly, no social skills, undesirable to the opposite sex, awkward, unable to converse on ordinary subjects, thick black rimmed glasses mended with adhesive tape, two left feet on the dance floor, completely inept at sports, and just generally "weirdos" - which NO kid wants to be. Does that sound like a portrayal that will attract, or repel, smart kids who could pursue their interests in SE subjects, or who could do something else?
I think you are confusing popular culture with reality. I'm in several high schools everyday of the week. I have three children and ten nieces and nephews. All 13 have or will graduate from college. The youngest will graduate in May. Two went to Ivy League schools, two went to Carnegie Mellon, two went to the University of Pittsburgh, two went to Duquesne, and the others to private universities in Western PA. Of the 13, one became an engineer and one became a doctor. Three became teachers. The others all majored in business and two have received MBA's so far. Why did only two go into science and engineering? The answer is simple. Those two excelled in science and math. The others avoided advance math and science that they weren't required to take. My one niece was an exception. She wanted to go to med school. Started college as a pre-med biology major. She didn't do well enough in math and science to get into medical school and later got a elementary education teaching degree.

I don't see the stereotype in schools that you describe. Many of the brightest kids are also the best athletes and leaders in their high school. The geeks and nerds are usually not planning to go to college.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Again, I will try to re-focus the posters to the actual subject here.

We all know in general US public primary and secondary education is a disaster, except for a few wealthy suburbs where the parents basically take the thing over and humiliate the administration into educating the kids. Kids in the central cities are SOL. We all know this.

But the subject of this thread, as opposed to the subject of the many threads on the subject ”everything that's wrong with public education in the US”, is about why US students are avoiding science and engineering.

What the public school systems do with IQ 90 students, or those who're going to end up in prison no matter what we do, is irrelevant to the subject of this particular thread. Those kids aren't candidates for engineering school anyway. No matter how much money you throw at it, the dull-normal or mentally retarded child who's reading on a second grade level at age 16 is NOT going to master partial differential equations, or understand the design of long distance transmission lines, or be able to calculate reaction rates and yields for the synthesis of polyalkylene glycol lubricants.

What we need to tackle in this thread is why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering, are instead choosing different career paths and education paths.
I've given you one reason why why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering are picking other careers. Many of them see a better career and more money in investment banking or consulting with firms like McKinsey or Booz Allen Hamilton.

I don't think the majority of our schools are a disaster in educating students with an aptitude for math and science. Most of the larger high schools have all the advanced math and science classes, and many of the teachers are excellent. In my son's HS graduating class, the top 10 students all went into medicine, engineering, or research. There were two MDs and at least one Phd. But I don't think these are the student you're talking about. I think you're describing the students in the 80th to 95th percentile. These are the students who drop out of the advanced math and science classes and look for an easier college major. This describes the majority of my family. My daughters had no interest in taking any math, science, or language classes in college.
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