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Old 01-31-2024, 07:21 PM
 
19,767 posts, read 18,050,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Could you outline what it is that they did?
I'm super short on time. We nearly moved to Finland years ago ergo we researched schooling and none of this is secret.

1. Finnish K-12 schools moved from a centralized hierarchy to local and hyper-local control.

2. Teaching educational requirements morphed from some of the most lax in the OECD to very likely the most demanding in the world. As a Finnish mom told us, "becoming a teacher in Finland is similar to graduating from a top 15 US law school." There is one path to becoming a teacher, earning a real masters degree at a research university and no short cuts.

3. It's very common for a kid to have the same teacher for several years.

4. Finnish teachers assign very little homework, few outside projects. The days are short etc. IIRC the school we looked at had a 9:00-2:00 school day.

5. The overarching thesis is master the basics. But expectations are very high.

6. Local authorities and principals have nearly unlimited authority to reassign, help and fire teachers.

7. First grade begins when kids are about 7yo.

8. Finnish kids take very few standardized tests and fewer tests period than US kids.

9. There is no drive to maximize the number of kids going to college as vocational paths are viewed as very valuable.

________________________


All of this works in part because misbehaving kids are removed.

And more importantly the teaching selection process is so rigorous and the educational path so difficult only very bright, very motivated and interested people become teachers. The process is so effective that once in place teacher's have significant autonomy.



I'm aware most of the above equals a full stop in The US.


Sorry for the clunky post and typos I had just few minutes.
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Old 01-31-2024, 07:38 PM
 
19,767 posts, read 18,050,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
The major thing they did was to become a welfare state. (not US type welfare)
Government programs and such were put into place in the 60's.

Finland is an excellent example of what a textbook "welfare state" should be.

It's an interesting read how they made all those changes.
It's a welfare state similar to Switzerland. Both feature robust and deep safety nets. However, both cultures sport work ethics we cannot match and in both welfare comes with case workers who hound the jobless to find jobs, drug addicts to get clean etc. Both systems are big on helping significantly but also big on making sure that help is as short lived as possible.

Neither Finland nor Switzerland has a minimum wage as such is utterly unnecessary as neither country has significant near-helpless adult populations.

In terms of OECD defined total social welfare spending relative to GDP The US spends a little more than either although Finland is very close.

Also in both countries the poor, working poor and lower middle classes pay much more in federal income taxes than the same in The US.
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Old 01-31-2024, 08:07 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,054 posts, read 18,216,027 times
Reputation: 34926
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
It's a welfare state similar to Switzerland. Both feature robust and deep safety nets. However, both cultures sport work ethics we cannot match and in both welfare comes with case workers who hound the jobless to find jobs, drug addicts to get clean etc. Both systems are big on helping significantly but also big on making sure that help is as short lived as possible.

Neither Finland nor Switzerland has a minimum wage as such is utterly unnecessary as neither country has significant near-helpless adult populations.

In terms of OECD defined total social welfare spending relative to GDP The US spends a little more than either although Finland is very close.

Also in both countries the poor, working poor and lower middle classes pay much more in federal income taxes than the same in The US.
I also think being a homogeneous country with an official language (Finland has 2) helped. They are all treated the same because they are all the same.

I think our multi cultural society puts a lot of roadblocks up to changes. We have no official language and we are not all treated the same because we are not all the same.
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Old 01-31-2024, 08:44 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,757 posts, read 24,253,304 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I also think being a homogeneous country with an official language (Finland has 2) helped. They are all treated the same because they are all the same.

I think our multi cultural society puts a lot of roadblocks up to changes. We have no official language and we are not all treated the same because we are not all the same.
Excellent point
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Old 01-31-2024, 09:03 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,687 posts, read 57,985,728 times
Reputation: 46166
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
...
I think our multi cultural society puts a lot of roadblocks up to changes. We have no official language and we are not all treated the same because we are not all the same.
Opportunities abound, especially for the underprivileged / marginal groups (This DOES NOT exist in the majority of the countries that far excel over USA in education). Often there is a (2) track system based on learning capabilitites. It is not considered ethical (or tolerated) to hold high performers to the level of the least capable student in the class. Teachers can handle it, usually with lower class sizes and very capable aids. (and NO Excuses allowed or even considered, certainly not tolerated). Crybabies are not part of the international education systems I am accustomed to working with .
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:33 PM
 
19,767 posts, read 18,050,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
Excellent point
Then why are so many in education pushing for significant equity of outcomes?
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:45 PM
 
Location: WA
5,438 posts, read 7,723,606 times
Reputation: 8538
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
I'm super short on time. We nearly moved to Finland years ago ergo we researched schooling and none of this is secret.

1. Finnish K-12 schools moved from a centralized hierarchy to local and hyper-local control.

2. Teaching educational requirements morphed from some of the most lax in the OECD to very likely the most demanding in the world. As a Finnish mom told us, "becoming a teacher in Finland is similar to graduating from a top 15 US law school." There is one path to becoming a teacher, earning a real masters degree at a research university and no short cuts.

3. It's very common for a kid to have the same teacher for several years.

4. Finnish teachers assign very little homework, few outside projects. The days are short etc. IIRC the school we looked at had a 9:00-2:00 school day.

5. The overarching thesis is master the basics. But expectations are very high.

6. Local authorities and principals have nearly unlimited authority to reassign, help and fire teachers.

7. First grade begins when kids are about 7yo.

8. Finnish kids take very few standardized tests and fewer tests period than US kids.

9. There is no drive to maximize the number of kids going to college as vocational paths are viewed as very valuable.

________________________


All of this works in part because misbehaving kids are removed.

And more importantly the teaching selection process is so rigorous and the educational path so difficult only very bright, very motivated and interested people become teachers. The process is so effective that once in place teacher's have significant autonomy.



I'm aware most of the above equals a full stop in The US.


Sorry for the clunky post and typos I had just few minutes.
And despite all of that, the US substantially out-performs Finland on both math and reading scores if you look at the White and Asian population of the US (equivalent of Finland). As I posted several pages up.

What the US has is difficulty educating Black and Hispanic students to reach those same performance standards which is a very well known problem with multiple interlocking social reasons for it. But if you want to compare apples to apples, the US K-12 system stands up in any fair comparison against any other country in the world.
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Old 01-31-2024, 10:48 PM
 
Location: WA
5,438 posts, read 7,723,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Then why are so many in education pushing for significant equity of outcomes?
People in education aren't pushing for equity of outcomes.

People in education are citing inequity in outcomes as evidence of inequality of opportunity.

Those are not the same thing.
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Old 01-31-2024, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
13,057 posts, read 7,491,199 times
Reputation: 9787
First, Let's start with a better worded thread title.

"Did America do a bad job to inspire its youth to study the sciences and engineering fields, in the first decade of the new century? "


I think this is the OP's original thought
or did OP mean the 21'st century? 2000-marktodate?
what is OP's definition of a "bad job"? A good job?
is OP's "America" a regional, political, ethnic, racial, or what ever is left over from the last few sexual couplings that generated a child- ie average stew?

Last edited by leastprime; 02-01-2024 at 12:03 AM..
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Old 02-01-2024, 12:06 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,757 posts, read 24,253,304 times
Reputation: 32902
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Then why are so many in education pushing for significant equity of outcomes?
I don't think they are. I think they mostly adopt the concept of 'let each become all he (or she) is capable of'. In 33 years of education, I can't think of a single teacher, counselor, or administrator who expected equal results for all kids.

One year I noticed how stark the achievement levels of our Black versus White students were in a particular teacher's math classes. Almost every Black student was getting a D or F, and even White students were more apt to get a D or F in that teacher's math classes than in any other teacher's math classes in the building...by far (but the gap between races...including Latino students...was greatest). So on our 3 late bus days I started checking who was staying after school in that teacher's class room for extra help. 100% White. 100%. So I called the teacher in for a conference. I started by asking her why, in general, her D/F rate was the highest -- by far -- of any of the four core subjects in our school. "I always seem to get the dumb ones". Right. The computer randomly put students in classes, but the dumb kids always got Miss Verna. Gee, what a huge coincidence...every year. And then I asked her that considering that almost every minority student in her class was getting a D or F, why don't minority students ever stay for extra help after school? "Well, I call the White parents and tell them to make their kids stay after for extra help". "And what about the Black and Latino students, who are almost all getting D or F? Why don't I ever see them getting extra help? What to their parents say when you call them?" "Oh, I don't call the Black or Latino parents". "Why not?" "Well you know how they all are". That's an equity issue.

Last edited by phetaroi; 02-01-2024 at 12:17 AM..
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