Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 02-01-2024, 12:14 AM
 
19,783 posts, read 18,073,660 times
Reputation: 17269

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
And despite all of that, the US substantially out-performs Finland on both math and reading scores if you look at the White and Asian population of the US (equivalent of Finland). As I posted several pages up.

What the US has is difficulty educating Black and Hispanic students to reach those same performance standards which is a very well known problem with multiple interlocking social reasons for it. But if you want to compare apples to apples, the US K-12 system stands up in any fair comparison against any other country in the world.

Right. But until further notice black and hispanic kids count and their relative academic failures pose real consequences for them and society.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-01-2024, 08:08 AM
 
12,846 posts, read 9,045,657 times
Reputation: 34914
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
Again, I will try to re-focus the posters to the actual subject here.

We all know in general US public primary and secondary education is a disaster, except for a few wealthy suburbs where the parents basically take the thing over and humiliate the administration into educating the kids. Kids in the central cities are SOL. We all know this.

But the subject of this thread, as opposed to the subject of the many threads on the subject ”everything that's wrong with public education in the US”, is about why US students are avoiding science and engineering.

What the public school systems do with IQ 90 students, or those who're going to end up in prison no matter what we do, is irrelevant to the subject of this particular thread. Those kids aren't candidates for engineering school anyway. No matter how much money you throw at it, the dull-normal or mentally retarded child who's reading on a second grade level at age 16 is NOT going to master partial differential equations, or understand the design of long distance transmission lines, or be able to calculate reaction rates and yields for the synthesis of polyalkylene glycol lubricants.

What we need to tackle in this thread is why highly intelligent US students, who could clearly excel in science and engineering, are instead choosing different career paths and education paths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbit33 View Post
So you think US public primary and secondary education is just A-OK, all peachy-keen? You must be the only one.

It's still irrelevant to the main subject of this thread. All the intervention in the world isn't going to turn mentally retarded kids, emotionally disturbed kids, or kids who're engaged with the criminal justice system at 10, into engineers and scientists. The thread is about why kids who are going to be successful in life and their careers, because of their combination of intelligence, drive, focus, and stability, don't choose SE careers. That's what this thread is about. And I continue to maintain it's cultural.
I'd agree with you to an extent. I think, however, that we can't separate the thread subject of "inspiring youth to go into science and engineering" from the basic problems in the school system. As you can see from this thread and some of the responses to your post, those inside the education system simply do not acknowledge that there even is a problem or that the very thing you cite is one of the contributors to the problem.

We can't inspire more kids until our education system stops un-inspiring them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 08:28 AM
 
14,400 posts, read 14,298,103 times
Reputation: 45727
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
I don't think they are. I think they mostly adopt the concept of 'let each become all he (or she) is capable of'. In 33 years of education, I can't think of a single teacher, counselor, or administrator who expected equal results for all kids.

One year I noticed how stark the achievement levels of our Black versus White students were in a particular teacher's math classes. Almost every Black student was getting a D or F, and even White students were more apt to get a D or F in that teacher's math classes than in any other teacher's math classes in the building...by far (but the gap between races...including Latino students...was greatest). So on our 3 late bus days I started checking who was staying after school in that teacher's class room for extra help. 100% White. 100%. So I called the teacher in for a conference. I started by asking her why, in general, her D/F rate was the highest -- by far -- of any of the four core subjects in our school. "I always seem to get the dumb ones". Right. The computer randomly put students in classes, but the dumb kids always got Miss Verna. Gee, what a huge coincidence...every year. And then I asked her that considering that almost every minority student in her class was getting a D or F, why don't minority students ever stay for extra help after school? "Well, I call the White parents and tell them to make their kids stay after for extra help". "And what about the Black and Latino students, who are almost all getting D or F? Why don't I ever see them getting extra help? What to their parents say when you call them?" "Oh, I don't call the Black or Latino parents". "Why not?" "Well you know how they all are". That's an equity issue.
I hope the teacher was told she had to call the black parents too and/or that some action was taken against her. That is classic racism. "You know how they all are". Well they aren't "all" that way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,797 posts, read 24,297,543 times
Reputation: 32935
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post
I hope the teacher was told she had to call the black parents too and/or that some action was taken against her. That is classic racism. "You know how they all are". Well they aren't "all" that way.
Yes. The teacher was put on a full scale evaluation with a letter in her permanent record about the primary reasons for the evaluation. Suddenly minority students were a regular feature in her after-school help sessions and grades improved significantly to something that was more like what we found in other teachers' math classes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 02:09 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,080 posts, read 18,252,401 times
Reputation: 34961
All that GPA inflation in K-12 catches up to them.

More than 1/2 of college students end up in remedial classes in college.
They can't pass the placement tests.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 02:37 PM
 
Location: WA
5,442 posts, read 7,735,145 times
Reputation: 8554
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDS_ View Post
Right. But until further notice black and hispanic kids count and their relative academic failures pose real consequences for them and society.
Of course they count.

My point is that we have a largely segregated system of education in this country compared to places like Finland.

We don't have a problem in American education with the vast stretches of the country that are middle and upper class suburban areas with predominantly white and Asian students. They are doing just fine and on average those schools are performing up with the best in the world and doing better than places like Finland.

What we have is a problem poor and minority schools that are highly segregated due to housing segregation, class, and so forth. Often they are also highly underfunded compared to their suburban counterparts.

Solving that problem goes to MUCH more than simply what happens within the walls of the schools. It involves complicated issues like generational poverty that are outside the control of the schools. That doesn't mean we write off such schools or their students. Of course we don't. This is America and every child deserves and equal opportunity.

What it does mean is that we need to be intelligent and thoughtful about how we diagnose problems in American education. This is a highly diverse country in every possible way. And looking at broad national aggregate statistics doesn't really inform. It actually obscures what is going on.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 03:11 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,080 posts, read 18,252,401 times
Reputation: 34961
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
What it does mean is that we need to be intelligent and thoughtful about how we diagnose problems in American education. This is a highly diverse country in every possible way. And looking at broad national aggregate statistics doesn't really inform. It actually obscures what is going on.
One size will never fit all in US schools.
As I posted earlier...places like Finland are a homogeneous society...they are all the same.

In Texas school funding is more equitable.
They have what's called Robinhood ....part of school taxes in the wealthy districts are redistributed to the poor and rural districts.

I worked in the rural districts and it made a huge difference.
Small rural schools were able to have the same technology as the schools in the cities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 04:44 PM
 
Location: WA
5,442 posts, read 7,735,145 times
Reputation: 8554
Quote:
Originally Posted by phetaroi View Post
One year I noticed how stark the achievement levels of our Black versus White students were in a particular teacher's math classes. Almost every Black student was getting a D or F, and even White students were more apt to get a D or F in that teacher's math classes than in any other teacher's math classes in the building...by far (but the gap between races...including Latino students...was greatest). So on our 3 late bus days I started checking who was staying after school in that teacher's class room for extra help. 100% White. 100%. So I called the teacher in for a conference. I started by asking her why, in general, her D/F rate was the highest -- by far -- of any of the four core subjects in our school. "I always seem to get the dumb ones". Right. The computer randomly put students in classes, but the dumb kids always got Miss Verna. Gee, what a huge coincidence...every year. And then I asked her that considering that almost every minority student in her class was getting a D or F, why don't minority students ever stay for extra help after school? "Well, I call the White parents and tell them to make their kids stay after for extra help". "And what about the Black and Latino students, who are almost all getting D or F? Why don't I ever see them getting extra help? What to their parents say when you call them?" "Oh, I don't call the Black or Latino parents". "Why not?" "Well you know how they all are". That's an equity issue.
I taught for a decade in a fairly affluent district in Central Texas where my students were roughly 1/3 Black, 1/3 Hispanic, and 1/3 White with a small smattering of Asian kids.

My Black parents were by far the most engaged. Now mind you this wasn't a high poverty district. My black students were mostly middle class and professional class. We were between Fort Hood and Baylor so I had lots of retired military families in second careers. So, for example moms who were retired sergeant majors and now working as bank managers or insurance sales or the like. Also kids of retired pro athletes, Baylor coaches, doctors, professors, city or school administrators, etc.

Every fall during school open house I would have a parade of non-nonsense Black moms visiting my classroom in business attire to give me their business cards and introduce themselves. And the conversation would go along the lines of "here's my card. Please keep me informed about anything going on with my kid and if you have any issues at all, please let me know first and we will deal with it. They very much wanted the chance to keep their kids out of the "system" which in Texas has a habit of sucking in Black kids and dealing with them harshly.

As a teacher it was actually awesome. If I had a kid acting up in the usual way, all I had to do is call him up to my desk and right in front of him compose a draft email to his mother:

"Mrs. Wilson, Jamal has been acting up in my class, disrupting the students around him, on his phone instead of getting his work done, etc.... Can you please have a word with him about his behavior?"

Then I would park that email in my draft folder and say "Jamal, how you decide to act for the rest of the period is going to determine whether I send that email today or delete it. In fact, I'll probably keep it there until the end of the week just in case I need it"

And that kid was GUARANTEED to be on his best behavior for at least the remainder of that week.

The kids who tended to give me the most gray hair were usually the rural White kids living in some double-wide out in the country with a Confederate flag in front who's dad might be a meth head or just armed to the teeth and full of bitterness and hate. Those were the kids who learned to be a-holes at home and would bring it with them to school. And also the parents who were unreachable. Or the kid might tell me. "Please don't call my dad, last time that happened he beat me with an axe handle."

Seriously.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 05:03 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
43,080 posts, read 18,252,401 times
Reputation: 34961
Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
The kids who tended to give me the most gray hair were usually the rural White kids living in some double-wide out in the country with a Confederate flag in front who's dad might be a meth head or just armed to the teeth and full of bitterness and hate. Those were the kids who learned to be a-holes at home and would bring it with them to school. And also the parents who were unreachable. Or the kid might tell me. "Please don't call my dad, last time that happened he beat me with an axe handle."

Seriously.
I worked in quite a few rural districts in Texas.
All I have to say is "your politics is showing". This is not P&OC

You forgot to add barking dogs and beer cans in the front yard. That will make your stereotypical description of rural people complete.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-01-2024, 09:47 PM
 
Location: WA
5,442 posts, read 7,735,145 times
Reputation: 8554
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
I worked in quite a few rural districts in Texas.
All I have to say is "your politics is showing". This is not P&OC

You forgot to add barking dogs and beer cans in the front yard. That will make your stereotypical description of rural people complete.
Be that as it may.

In that particular school I had VASTLY more discipline problems from white kids than black kids. At it was almost always rural kids not suburban ones. Could have been the particular dynamics of that district where there were poorer rural kids zoned into what was a more diverse and affluent suburban district. I don't know.

Worst kid I ever had in all my years of teaching was a white kid athlete who provoked a black kid in the middle of science class into a fight and viciously threw him into the glass fume hood shattering it and bringing glass down all over the floor.

He was arrested and expelled, the other kid was not and faced on disciplinary action. A week later I saw on the news that this kid's dad was a cop who had been fired for excessive violent abuse of suspects and some other type of corruption that I forgot in a cleanup of the local police department. And yes, they lived outside of town in a rural area. Apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top